Mark Mayers
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« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2024, 03:41:51 AM » |
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2024, 09:43:00 AM » |
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Hope you are all having a nice thanksgiving and I'm glad you are all having fun with this thread. -inconsistent trace lines width, lines that are supposedly to be straight but not. Lines are supposed to be straight but not... who says they are supposed to be straight? You? -Faded or Uneven Colors (use another medium or buy some good good quality markers) Sometimes my markers run out, I do not have infinite money dispite your widly inapropriate personal attacks, but also sometimes flat colors are boring. If you want I'll post a version of an art that I covered over with digital illustration which is totally flat and smooth: Here is the original with Uneven Colors: Here is the SVG edited version which, and I'm not deliberately antagonizing you, I think is lower quality: I legit thing the hand drawn version has more character. I can vectorize art if it somehow will catch on, but it's not too much fun. -Stepping Off the Edge I don't want to be rude, but this is a fancy term for drawing inside the lines? -smudge of colors This seems pretty similar to faded colors. -inexistent visible composition I'd be most interested in getting into this. To some extent my whole artistic bent is to allow the viewer to see what they want. It seems you see me as some kind of shitty person who is unworthy of any respect. I guess if that makes you happy enjoy your PoV. Intelligent perception I could make an argument about how norms change and how once you get enough critical mass, a movement of art, however shitty some see it as, can become the dominant narrative and thus it becomes uncool to shit on a type of art. I don't really understand what this means other than that I "lack the will of the warrior" and thus I automatically lose. Here is a piece I never named that I think I will now call "Intelligent Perception" Also, I think there is a rule about personal attacks, but you're the moderator so I'm not sure who to complain to.
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b∀ kkusa
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« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2024, 01:05:53 PM » |
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 If you act petty don't expect unhostile responses (and you still only have 3 likes) and btw why are you so much stuck on this: the main issue with your art and the reason people tells you it's childish is because of inconsistencies you find in kids drawings. (i just circled a few) -inconsistent trace lines width, lines that are supposedly to be straight but not. -Faded or Uneven Colors (use another medium or buy some good good quality markers) -Stepping Off the Edge -smudge of colors -inexistent visible composition
if you read carefully you'd notice that i only mentioned a few reasons on why your drawings could be taken as an art made by a child in general and at that point i didn't even give you my personal opinion beside the lack of composition. The first four reasons i quoted are mistakes that children commonly do in Coloring Books and yet present in all your artworks. Sometimes my markers run out
that's just an excxuse, you're just using a medium you're not good with. you're using alcohol markers (Caliart markers apparently) and it looks like you're using dollar store markers. Intelligent perception I could make an argument about how norms change and how once you get enough critical mass, a movement of art, however shitty some see it as, can become the dominant narrative and thus it becomes uncool to shit on a type of art. I don't really understand what this means other than that I "lack the will of the warrior" and thus I automatically lose. yeah we can always make an argument, that's what Andrew Loomis said. I cited a quote of his book where he explicitly said that you can use all the arguments, alibis, and defenses in the world... and yet again you demonstrated again how illiterate and surface level you are by how off topic your answer is.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2024, 06:36:14 PM » |
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That's fine man, you can calm down now. I can tell you aren't going to help my art in any way and have some kind of issues of your own. I hope you get past it, and I'm glad I saw it through. I know that my argument, and my thesis about art being fun, and my words won't sell anything. I also know that because of one post that got 3 likes, or because my art is too slopy, or whatever it is, you will never respect me. If it weren't that post, it would be something else, there is no way I can walk on eggshells around you. I think the algorithm is unfair, anyone who thinks that way can join up with me. I think art can be fun, anyone who thinks that way can join up with me. I think childlike art can be exceptional, anyone who thinks that way can join up with me. But I know a lot of people don't agree. I will continue to build up my following of people who see things more like me and we'll see who has the last laugh. I'm gonna be doing this for another 40 years... probably. BTW, your art is fantastic, I can see why this forum is thriving. 
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Schoq
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« Reply #84 on: November 29, 2024, 09:05:54 AM » |
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I think the algorithm is unfair, anyone who thinks that way can join up with me.
I think art can be fun, anyone who thinks that way can join up with me.
I think childlike art can be exceptional, anyone who thinks that way can join up with me.
Michael almost nobody disagrees with these "The Algorithm" promotes shrimp jesus and zero effort reaction videos. It promotes minimal effort for maximum engagement (within TOS). It promotes spending more resources on SEO than on perfecting a craft and advancing an art. It demotes anything that is counter to the goal of showing more users more ads per minute. We all hate it. Nobody other than big tech, its advertiser customers and spam farms thinks it's good. I doubt there's a human alive who would answer no to the question "can art be fun?". what I'm not sure what you mean by childlike art. I don't think any artist will say they really nailed their style or peaked as an artist when they were 10, but I don't think that's what you mean. Art for children can obviously be exceptional and it can be shit, but I don't think that's what you mean. Exceptional art can exhibit childlike traits, but if it can't be separated from art drawn by a typical child it's by definition not exceptional, and I don't think that's what you mean. Develop this one for my benefit if you feel like it. And once again make the art you want to make; nobody is telling you otherwise. It's, concisely put, your immature demands of the outside world how this art should be received that rubs everyone the wrong way. Perhaps especially in a scene (small time game development) where the typical and expected outcome of spending years of sacrificing financial security and pouring your necessarily diverse talent and hard earned set of skills into a passion project is... radio silence, as a function of statistics.
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♡ ♥ make games, not money ♥ ♡
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #85 on: November 29, 2024, 05:30:02 PM » |
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where the typical and expected outcome of spending years of sacrificing financial security It might seem naive, but I believe we can collaborate to overcome this rather than resigning ourselves to it as the standard practice. As the saying goes, "no one owes me [or anyone, it seems] anything." We have no obligations to each other, we avoid retweeting to prevent cluttering the feed, and so on. In an ideal world, independent creators wouldn't be so enthusiatic about what I will call "self-gatekeeping," especially when, despite being supportive of others, the algorithms still seem stacked against us. I'm eager to write articles about games, to promote independent developers who have "risked financial ruin for years and are met with silence," and to discuss what makes those overlooked games remarkable and exciting. I've been informed, through others' silence, that I'm not allowed to post on the front page of TIG, and no one has clarified why. I would be thrilled to write about numerous games and more. Please give me the opportunity! This doesn't need to be an exclusive club where those who have succeeded isolate themselves and ignore the newcomers. I'm aware that many people, both openly and in private, attempt to assist those just starting out. I wish the indie community embodied camaraderie and friendship, rather than an attitude of "we've made it, you're owed nothing, go away." Perhaps I'm not the best at expressing it, or maybe I come across as childish, naive, or something else. I feel incredibly privileged to have had so many opportunities to succeed. I believe I have talent and a strong work ethic, and I've created games that are innovative and art that is engaging and enjoyable. If I can't succeed, it appears the odds are stacked against everyone. THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE WAY THE SYSTEM IS. It inherently benifits the most powerful and gives people like Elon Musk the world. And I suppose you might think my work is inferior and that the successful works are far superior to mine. From my perspective, it seems unfair and rigged, and I don't see the benefit in hiding my dissatisfaction with a system that seems indifferent. The system I'm proposing is not cool. It is one where maybe the people in the lead slow down to help someone who tripped, which means the winner won't win by as much as they could have. And maybe I can make a solo egplant run that Derek wrote his book about, how I can totally make a game entirely in isolation with just a tiny team of family who support me. But that isn't how I, at least, want it to be.
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cynicalsandel
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« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2024, 06:43:59 AM » |
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I'm eager to write articles about games, to promote independent developers who have "risked financial ruin for years and are met with silence," and to discuss what makes those overlooked games remarkable and exciting. I've been informed, through others' silence, that I'm not allowed to post on the front page of TIG, and no one has clarified why. I would be thrilled to write about numerous games and more. Please give me the opportunity! It feels like you don't realize you're posting on the equivalent of a historical record. These forums, and the website itself fundamentally exist as an archive first, it's just that the forums still allow for addenda. It is most likely not worth the time, effort, or money to upgrade the website to allow the things you want to happen. That's excluding the fact that I don't think posts to the main website will have the effect you think they will. I guess this could be considered a continuation of your feelings about your art, but even if we lived in a world where the frontpage was active and relevant, why do you deserve to post there? What work are you doing to promote indie games right now? I only did a quick peruse, but I did not find your writing on games on a blog or website. If you aren't doing that now, why would anyone trust you to be able to write for the front page? Just because you want to? Do you think you are the only one? It feels like you want the "prestige" (or perceived attention) of your writing being on the front page because it will give your writing authority. Feel free to link your writing on games, as I don't have the bandwidth to seek it out further. This doesn't need to be an exclusive club where those who have succeeded isolate themselves and ignore the newcomers. I'm aware that many people, both openly and in private, attempt to assist those just starting out. I wish the indie community embodied camaraderie and friendship, rather than an attitude of "we've made it, you're owed nothing, go away." So, I'm slowly but surely starting to get it, why the indie elite are so careful about keeping their timeline free of "clutter," why an executive at the head of Epic games says he "doesn't talk to losers," and why an executive at Microsoft's "reputation is too important" to help someone like me. I'm surprised you support Derek's goals of helping indie devs that the world doesn't owe shit to? Or did the ones that Derek helped fight for it properly, so they do deserve it? Do you have kids? Your accusations of pulling up the ladder are immensely frustrating. People got older. They built lives for themselves. They had families. So many of the "big name" formerly active people on these forums were doing so in their teens and early 20's. There just isn't enough time in the day. They'd rather spend it with their friends and family than a bunch of strangers. They'd rather spend it making games than talking about making them. They'd rather spend it playing games in what little time they have leftover. I'd imagine this might seem like more antagonism, but it feels like you view all these people as a means to an end, as what they can offer you. You want something from them. And as someone who has experienced this to a lesser degree than the people you're imagining, we can all smell it from a mile away. It feels dehumanizing to be on the receiving end. Why is it surprising that people ignore you when you view them as a transaction waiting to happen? And a transaction in which you offer nothing in return? You have not built relationships with these people. You might say "but they didn't let me". So what? They are not your peers. You are not on their level. Neither am I! Most of my "connections" have come from growing alongside other people over time, not begging for the attention of people who have already "made it". We made each other better and eventually, we carved spaces for ourselves. You want a shortcut. This is all aside from the fact that many of these people are still helping up and coming people. Plenty of them do mentor others. It's just not happening on tigsource or even social media. There is a saying that the worst thing you can be in a band is a bad hang, and your (or at least my perception is that of a) victim complex does not do you any favors.
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« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 07:07:48 AM by cynicalsandel »
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ProgramGamer
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« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2024, 07:51:52 AM » |
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2024, 12:02:00 PM » |
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If you did a lot to keep the ladder down for the next generation then you wouldn't feel awkward when people pull at that thread.
I'm not saying I'm a victim, nor are the whole swath of indie devs who got swept under the rug by algorithms and cliques of people who feel that the only reason people respect their games is transactional instead of genuine respect for work that has inspired them.
Your sense of smell (seeing everyone as out to benifit from your hard work, but not actually worthy) may be off here. And also I'm not so sure that 100% of indies who are super famous got there on their own without any help from someone else. None of them were ever transactional or being friendlier to people who could help them out? No, I'm sure they were totally genuine and honest.
As I've said many times, and I'll say again. I'm super privlidged to get to try again and again. And that is my own cross to bear that no one owes anything anything. I'm not a victem, I'm just calling them like I see it: and you seem to agree. All the indies have their own lives, and kids and just don't care.
And if TIG is supposed to be an archive (no one told me or the people who post here that, but if that's what it is I guess you are an authority.) then why not just lock everything in the forum and so on. Really pull the ladder all the way up so that this door is closed for everyone, right? Don't act like indies are some band of brothers who are out to help everyone, in reality they are very busy and judgmental of people who are "just in it for themselves" or who "aren't worthy of posting something on the front page"
If you want writing samples I'm happy to provide them, you probably don't care to know me in any way. Because again, you don't want to give up anything to someone you see as lesser. And if you think you truly are on another level than people like me (who are not victims and someday will probably find another way to break through.) just acknowledge that you are gatekeepers and you are proud to deny people you see as lesser anything. Revel in saying no to people who are different and outside the system. That's your thing, own it.
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Alevice
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« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2024, 12:39:03 PM » |
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As long as you keep glowing emerald from all that envy, you will not get anywhere in your life
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Alevice
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« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2024, 12:50:12 PM » |
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(seeing everyone as out to benifit from your hard work, but not actually worthy)
Hi please develop some reading comprehension, kthxbye
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2024, 01:00:57 PM » |
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It seems like we all agree though: Art, and what is cool, is inherently about elitism. -Me i'm pretty sure you're aware that there's plenty of capable artists around you and you're just a spit in that ocean. - Bakkusa you struggle to even get at 100 likes and you can't concede to the fact that you art isn't good enough. -Bakkusa you art is bad because you're working within a particular set of codes without being sufficiently literate on the inner rules or norms of said codes. -Bakkusa They are not your peers. You are not on their level. -cynicalsandel My art simply isn't cool enough. You may try to say it's not "good" enough, but at the end of the day, being a "good hang" is more important to the band than anything else, as you all say. You are saying my stuff sucks and that's why I fail. I don't know it's so simple. I'm supposed to be good at socializing, but also not transactional. Friendly to hang out with, but people "smell my true intent miles away." Be friendly when, in reality, I'm not really a friendly guy to people other than my inner circle. My whole argument is that the "game" is about conforming to a bunch of norms that don't care about you and giving up the things that make you special. @Alevice -> And yes, I am envious, that is a fair critique. I'm not saying I'm a victim, but yes, I do want more of what the so-called cool kids have.
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Alevice
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« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2024, 01:10:42 PM » |
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I'm supposed to be good at socializing, but also not transactional.
Intent is a key part of it. You are seeing socialization as a mean to climb up the ladder, not as a way to help and get hlep as a community. If you accuse others of not helping to climb the ladder, but you dont help others and lift each otherz you are part of the same problem. The article thing is an example of this. Of you wanted to use articles to help others, you could have already started a while ago on your own terms. You want to write articles because you crave the recognition you think you are owed. Stop pretending you are not part of the problem you keep criticizing
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b∀ kkusa
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« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2024, 01:26:38 PM » |
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My whole argument is that the "game" is about conforming to a bunch of norms that don't care about you and giving up the things that make you special.
what are even the things that make you special? lol
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ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2024, 03:35:34 PM » |
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And if TIG is supposed to be an archive (no one told me or the people who post here that, but if that's what it is I guess you are an authority.) then why not just lock everything in the forum and so on. Really pull the ladder all the way up so that this door is closed for everyone, right?
TIGSource had some relevance in the past, but the website it is today is a shadow of its former self. None of us have any ladders to pull up. Whoever it is you identify as the indie elite, the people who hang out on (the current version of) this forum almost certainly aren't it. Those of us who are keeping the lights on and keeping the nonstop flood of spammers out do it mostly for the devlogs board, because other than keeping historical records around, that's the one useful service that this site can still fulfill. You've released multiple video games and have artistic pursuits you enjoy, and that's great! If you want to turn that into business success, I don't think there's a way for that to happen on this forum. There isn't a recipe to follow, so you'll just have to forge your own path, and maybe have a lot of failures before you (if you're both persistent and lucky) find success somewhere.
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ProgramGamer
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« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2024, 07:10:48 PM » |
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Michael, I know it must seem to you like everyone here is antagonizing you, but that's not the case (mostly). You've gotten some really good feedback on why your attitude towards game development & this forum is flawed and how to adjust it for the better, and it's obviously frustrating to the people who try to get through to you that you become argumentative about it. Please make a point to try and listen to their point, otherwise you're not being a good hang, so to speak.
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cynicalsandel
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« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2024, 01:51:17 AM » |
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If you did a lot to keep the ladder down for the next generation then you wouldn't feel awkward when people pull at that thread.
I'm not saying I'm a victim, nor are the whole swath of indie devs who got swept under the rug by algorithms and cliques of people who feel that the only reason people respect their games is transactional instead of genuine respect for work that has inspired them.
Your sense of smell (seeing everyone as out to benifit from your hard work, but not actually worthy) may be off here. And also I'm not so sure that 100% of indies who are super famous got there on their own without any help from someone else. None of them were ever transactional or being friendlier to people who could help them out? No, I'm sure they were totally genuine and honest. Michael, I'm a QA person. I'm also a trans woman. I barely have human rights, let alone a ladder to pull up. Most of my (and many others success) was down to luck (and sometimes inertia). If you released a game in 2008 you were "luckier" than someone releasing now. If you released a game in 2012, you were "luckier" than someone releasing now. If you released a game in 2016, you were "luckier" than someone releasing now. If you live in a metro area with a thriving game dev scene, you are "luckier" than someone who doesn't. If you grew up with a computer and the internet, you were "luckier" than someone who didn't. It's not even about being helped or not. So much of it is pure circumstance. Someone entering adulthood now cannot go back in time to an indie game scene with less competition (or to when Jonathan Blow or Derek Yu might've paid attention to you on tigsource  ). Someone who doesn't have the means to move cities, states, or countries cannot change the circumstance of where they live. 95% of my success was luck. It was being in the right place at the right time with the right amount of free time (being unemployed). The other 5% was my work ethic, ability, and being personable enough that people thought I was worth giving a chance to. It could've easily been anyone else. I've also met plenty of wonderful people in games. I can tell usually tell when someone has an agenda. I've been guilty of it myself. It's the difference between talking at someone and conversing with them. You go to enough game dev meetups and you can just feel it. It's not dissimilar to being one of the few (or only) women in a male dominated space or hobby and catching that vibe that they view you only as a romantic prospect instead of a full person. And if TIG is supposed to be an archive (no one told me or the people who post here that, but if that's what it is I guess you are an authority.) then why not just lock everything in the forum and so on. Really pull the ladder all the way up so that this door is closed for everyone, right? Don't act like indies are some band of brothers who are out to help everyone, in reality they are very busy and judgmental of people who are "just in it for themselves" or who "aren't worthy of posting something on the front page" I do sometimes think that the forums should be archived. It happened to pixelation, and while people were saddened, they understood. Forums are a dying medium (with a huge bot, spammer, and security problem), even if I prefer the format. It feels weird to have to point out the dearth of activity here compared to over a decade ago or more. The tigsource forums are not a ladder that can be pulled up because they are irrelevant outside of historical significance. You'd have a much better argument complaining about how cost prohibitive GDC is. If you want writing samples I'm happy to provide them, you probably don't care to know me in any way. Because again, you don't want to give up anything to someone you see as lesser. And if you think you truly are on another level than people like me (who are not victims and someday will probably find another way to break through.) just acknowledge that you are gatekeepers and you are proud to deny people you see as lesser anything. Revel in saying no to people who are different and outside the system. That's your thing, own it. This is what makes me feel vindicated about my initial perception that you had a victim complex. Sure, I asked some tough questions, but I genuinely asked for your writing (or anything you've done to surface other games). Not even to judge your writing! Just to see if it existed at all! I fundamentally believe that if you wanted to do it, you'd already be doing it. You don't need tigsource's permission to review games on youtube. You don't need tigsource's permission to maintain a blog with your thoughts about underdiscussed indie games. If it's only worth your time if it lands on the front page of tigsource, it makes me doubt your intentions. The fact that you didn't link anything feels like proof that you don't have anything. "I could link them, but you aren't engaging the way I want you to, so I won't bother" is classic taking your ball and going home behavior. I'm just calling them like I see it: and you seem to agree. All the indies have their own lives, and kids and just don't care. People having other priorities is not the same as not caring. And the fact that you didn't answer the question about kids is telling. "They are not your peers. You are not on their level." -cynicalsandel It feels very convenient that you left out the part where I said I wasn't either. The part where I describe building relationships with people in a similar place to you. My statement was not even a judgment of your skill level or ability. It was a a factual statement about your (and my) current standing in the industry. But I'm not the one thinking about Jonathan Blow. My whole argument is that the "game" is about conforming to a bunch of norms that don't care about you and giving up the things that make you special. The "game" is being a human. Humans are social beings. I talk about being a "good hang" because my opinion is that you cannot truly control luck or circumstance. However, if people have a positive impression of you, if they value your presence, it gives you the best chance to make the most of the opportunities that do arise.
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« Last Edit: December 01, 2024, 02:10:11 AM by cynicalsandel »
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2024, 08:20:13 AM » |
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Here is an archive of all the Gamedev Feedback's I've done: https://github.com/Silverware-Games/Gamedev-FeedbackI've done 44 of them but I think there may be a few more. Sadly, I couldn't get them to get much visibility, so it died off. Here are a few of them directly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbUnNHcSPFYI would love you to look at them, all the games in there are pretty ... cool ... in one way or another. I don't have kids yet, and probably will stop making much stuff because I'll be taking care of them when I do have them.
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cynicalsandel
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« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2024, 08:39:47 AM » |
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I don't have kids yet, and probably will stop making much stuff because I'll be taking care of them when I do have them. Having kids is a wonderful thing! I hope you truly absorb this statement/admission and use it to have empathy for some of these indie "elites" (superstars, successes, etc). Also, thank you for linking your work. I'll do my best to check a few of your videos out. (I'll probably skew a bit towards the RPGs)
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2024, 12:09:15 PM » |
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Thank you all for your critique of my art and even of me. The dirty laundry doesn't get clean if you don't air it out. I'll be the first to admit that I do need an attitude adjustment, and even focusing on cleaning up my lines a bit isn't bad advice. My understanding, although not verified, is that Van Gogh spent most, if not all, of his life believing that Starry Night was a failure, despite it being one of the most successful paintings ever. It's unclear who would be responsible for that unpleasant twist of fate. I'm not claiming that my art is the greatest ever created, but it surely deserves more recognition than just three likes from my mom and wife.  Regarding my videos, my true desire is to assist developers in gaining more visibility while also helping them sidestep typical development blunders that can save time. For instance, I encountered a game that used an extremely small 9px font on a 4k monitor. I'm eager to compose an article highlighting the frequent pitfalls encountered in games... one of many topics I would love to tackle. However, my motivation wanes because my projects rarely receive significant attention, and I believe that if I were contributing to TIG, my work would reach a wider audience. It may seem transactional, but as someone who aims to entertain, I don't feel completely satisfied until my work resonates with others.
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