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[michaelplzno]

@golds

My main man kurt Gohdel proved that in a rigorous language all true things cannot be proven. To me that is almost a proof that there is a god.

"This statement has no proof."

That kind of meta nonsense makes it impossible to go too high and mighty.

[J-Snake]

My main man kurt Gohdel proved that in a rigorous language all true things cannot be proven. To me that is almost a proof that there is a god.

Just out of interest. What makes this more compelling or indicative than the fact that there are infinitely many numbers between any two distinct numbers, irrational numbers like Pi or square root of 2, or the fundamental fact that matter exists?

[Golds]

@golds
My main man kurt Gohdel proved that in a rigorous language all true things cannot be proven. To me that is almost a proof that there is a god.

Of course there is a God.  If there wasn't one, the universe wouldn't exist. It'd all just be void, but that's clearly not the case.

[michaelplzno]

there are infinitely many numbers between any two distinct numbers, irrational numbers like Pi or square root of 2, or the fundamental fact that matter exists?

Maybe because I had known all these things since a much younger age.

But also: the fact that the act of imposing a structure on the universe, rigorous language, means things slip through seems more poetic than just matter existing or real analysis.

In any world with set theory, PI exists. But also the specialness of PI (or root 2) is assigned by humans. What astounds me is that by the very nature of logic we cannot solve it all.

Of course there is a God.

That's not so clear and using God as a band aid to solve the origin of matter seems to be a bit of a simple view of whatever entity that is.

[J-Snake]

Maybe because I had known all these things since a much younger age.

I see. In the same way most people claim to know god but they don't know anything about god. Otherwise it wouldn't surprise you that not all truths can be proven. Not everything has to follow a repeating pattern that can be simplified; certain irrational numbers are a perfect example. As a result, pinpointing their exact value would require infinite effort, which is, of course, impossible.

[michaelplzno]

I have trouble with god as a concept, I was gonna write this in the power fantasy thread:

God is all powerful but won't heal the sick and lets the holocaust happen and all sorts of miserable stuff that there is too much to list...





As a Michael, I should know god better right? The name Michael means "who is like god?" and my understanding is that no one is. But also, god doesn't seem likeable as a ... whatever god is.

A lot of people think god should be worshiped, but if you've ever tried that with a celebrety you know people who are superstars usually hate fawning fans.

God the absent father. (Wanting us to make it on our own without support from daddy.)
God the mediator of competing wills. (Too carefully weighing both sides to be decisive?)
God the all powerful but lazy. (Apparently it is difficult to fix this world.)
God the gamer. (Going for high score but limited by the rules of the game.)
God who isn't all knowing. (Because god has some kind of concern about protecting human's privacy.)
God who isn't all powerful. (Because something like Satan is sapping god's abilities.)

They all don't really make sense. I'm told if it made sense you wouldn't have to have faith, which seems to be a key to all this. Even still, if you care what the bible says (as opposed to Harry Potter, which more people have read) god took his most faithful and asked him to sacrifice his son and then said LOL JK, which is a horrible thing to do to the faithful.

God straight up tortured Job... for no reason, and at the end Job's reward was that he got to talk to god directly? Like can I just go to another universe instead where the guy who runs things is kind and just?

My wife's theory is that people chose a life in our world out of boredom from a perfect utopia after millions and trillions of years. I don't know how it can all work, I guess you are supposed to smoke some kind of drug and (queue zen noises) just transcend the mortal realm. I can't really do drugs because it will make me even more insane.

[J-Snake]

I see how you’re interpreting my mention of God, though that wasn’t my primary point. My point was that the existence of a number like Pi should be just as surprising—or not, depending on your perspective—as the fact that not all truths can be proven.

As for your views on God, they reflect a certain lack of spiritual depth. Science is limited in that it can’t account for truths accessible only through the spiritual realm. Suffering, for instance, is tied to the existence of free will. Jesus addressed the self-delusion when he said something akin to, 'People want proof of God's existence, but they don’t want to truly see God.' Imagine a scenario where someone could ‘prove’ God’s existence by making it rain on command. Would this make anyone more spiritual or add value to their soul? It might instill fear and respect, but that isn’t the kind of understanding Jesus intended to inspire.

[michaelplzno]

Free will: the ability to make bad choices that will forever doom us. If there is a right answer just tell me, have a little angel pop up and say, "don't do that or you will be punished for eternity." Better yet: just make it impossible to do something that will damn me forever.

I want to see god (though to some extent to punish him.) God had to kill jesus to save humanity? What, not powerful enough to snap his fingers and remove our sin? He had to make a movie... bible I mean... a best seller to reach and save the souls he created himself?

I've had moments where the world seems orchestrated by some unknowable ineffable force, like a musical where everyone is dancing like puppets to some kind of unheard music. It was not pleasant for me, it makes me feel like a tool.

Philosophers have rigged up a lot of things to allow for god to exist, they made the definition of "Know" in ontology, mean belive something that is true, thus it is possible to "Know" that god exists. I do not know that god exists, I believe it, but the truth is unknowable, and that is at best frustraiting when so many people want so much and so little seems to be fixing a dying planet.

My point was that the existence of a number like Pi should be just as surprising

The surprise doesn't mean much, it's what the actual meaning of the truth is. Numbers existing is as clear as the fingers on my body, the idea that logic itself can prove that logic has limitations seems much more meaningful.

[J-Snake]

Free will: the ability to make bad choices that will forever doom us. If there is a right answer just tell me, have a little angel pop up and say, "don't do that or you will be punished for eternity." Better yet: just make it impossible to do something that will damn me forever.

What you suggest is a paradox. The goal is to choose goodness by free will, not by force. The former path leads to spirituality, the latter to religion. Thus, free will is essential, and life remains unfair until everyone chooses to treat each other kindly.

Numbers existing is as clear as the fingers on my body

I wasn't talking about that. You cannot prove all truths for the same reason you cannot pinpoint the exact value of Pi. That's the actual meaning. In short, it’s because both of these facts are closely tied to the concept of infinity.

[michaelplzno]

The goal is to choose goodness by free will, not by force.

I get tired of that choice over and over, do I ever get done with it?... Also, because I have free will I can choose to accidentally cut my finger with a kitchen knife while I cook, or make a million mistakes that cause infinite pain and sorrow? I have to choose to be vigilant against errors because that is the path to virtue?

You cannot prove all truths for the same reason you cannot pinpoint the exact value of Pi.

Calculus is the study of infinity, and a taylor series can be used to repersent Pi exactly as well as prove that it is irational, a complicated proof that will take up a few pages of rigerous language. (It is much easier to prove root 2 is irational.) But infinity, countable, uncountable, and the various hierarchies of infinite series that goes all the way up, are all route things to a math guy.

"God the teacher" - your life is a test, and god is a cruel strict school marm who does not love you. Every second, god is testing your purity, every action is graded and scored. Once you "graduate" you get to deal with a god who isn't an arse?

[J-Snake]

If you aren't satisfied, you make wrong choices. But the choice is yours;)

a taylor series can be used to repersent Pi exactly

Not in a finite form. In a similar way, some proofs would require an infinite amount of steps to tell you something about something.

[michaelplzno]

If you aren't satisfied, you make wrong choices. But the choice is yours;)

What a great choice, one side is to be satisfied, the other side is to be miserable. Thanks so much for that choice, it's like that scene in the matrix where they rufied neo without any real consent.

When I choose to eat as much as I feel like eating and then get high cholesterol and become obese, I can either have those health consequences or sit and feel hungry all day. This is a real wonderland god has rigged up for us.

infinite

I don't see how infinite things imply god exists, but I wouldn't press on you to explain it.

[J-Snake]

Your questions are essentially repetitive, but the answer stays consistent: taking responsibility is a direct consequence of having free will. Free will, in turn, is essential for spiritual growth, which is the most valuable pursuit.

I don't see how infinite things imply god exists.

Me neither, which was precisely my point.

[michaelplzno]

I wasn't trying to prove god exists, mostly that the stuff in the religious end of thoughts (arbitrary assumptions) are contradictory and impossible to prove.

Do humans have souls?
Is consciousness non-computational?
Is there a god?
Would a theorhtical god be a prick?

These are questions science cannot answer and all fall into the arbitrary/religious belief category. There are hints that the answer to these questions are yes that are totally provable by science and knowable by humans:

Existence of non-computable questions, like the halting problem.
Human's ability to solve non-computationally-feasable questions without knowing their algorithmic process.
Incompleteness of logic, in that we cannot prove all true things.
Existence of matter/infinity/numbers/the universe.
So much we can explain that it all seems designed not to make sense at all.

But the territory is firmly in the "we cannot prove it" realm, thus to talk about it we need to make arbitrary assumptions, aka have faith.

[J-Snake]

These are questions science cannot answer and all fall into the arbitrary/religious belief category.

Yes, your answer is the expected conclusion for someone lacking spiritual depth. To illustrate, imagine science as a 2D creature that believes everything knowable exists on a flat plane; anything beyond must be arbitrary. Then a 3D creature approaches, describing all the obvious 3D phenomena that sound incomprehensible or arbitrary to the 2D creature. The 3D creature suggests, 'Just look up.' But the 2D creature counters, "What is “up”? Must be just another arbitrary concept."

All the meaningful questions like "Can free will exist without the possibility to cause suffering?", or "Do we have free will?" can be answered by a spiritual person, but they cannot be answered by science.

[michaelplzno]

Here is my counter: Perhaps there is another dimension (new galaxy) but these spiritual elites who see the world beyond the measuring stick aren't helping us 2d troglodytes handle our quaint little world where things are judged on the black and white truth assumptions of science.

If I buy a piece of furniture, it has to fit in my apartment, so I have to measure, and do all these little brained 2d things to make it work. I have to scrutinize, I have to get all the details perfect, measure, cut, use tools properly all the stuff of a poor humble 2d brained craftsman.

If there were no consistent measuring stick, the spiritual people are left to fight over stuff that cannot be resolved: "god's hair is blue" no "god's hair is red" etc. Or we simply agree with authority "the pope says this is the truth, so that's that"

That is, I'm not saying there is no "third spiritual dimension" but rather, that it's ephemeral nature makes it impossible to work with in concrete terms, meaning the stuff you can make out of it is completely subjective and then it quickly becomes easy to float off into a meaningless void where "hey, I snapped a photo of poop, that's as good as the mona lisa"

[J-Snake]

Here is my counter: A 3D creature knows everything a 2D creature knows. But a 2D creature does not know everything a 3D creature knows.

[michaelplzno]

Ah, but you are stretching the word "know" as us 2d bois only stick to what we know and concede that the dimension of arbitrary assumptions is unknowable, and a waste of time to argue about because the very nature of an argument posits that there is a right answer at all.

That is, you say you "know" the third dimension, but it is all subjective, arbitrary, and ephemeral to us dumdums in the 2d realm.

[J-Snake]

That is, you say you "know" the third dimension, but it is all subjective, arbitrary, and ephemeral to us dumdums in the 2d realm.

You got that right. Just replace "dumdums" with "confused individuals".

[michaelplzno]

Here is my confused summary of the ontological nature of the world. Just for clarity and to make sure we are all playing the same game. (Click to expand.)

Obviously if a lot of people believe your art is great, there is money in that, just ask Picaso. Apparently "marketing" is how this is done but I don't believe that there isn't something beyond reality putting its fingers on the scale.

But AI is the new player on the board.