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[PsySal]

I think what a lot of people might be trying to say is, "we've been there, or we've seen a lot of other people there, and it might not work out as well as you'd expect".

So what seems like a personal attack here might really just be some sympathetic advice, which can maybe be summed up as: make something small.

You posted to the right place; you didn't get the response you expected, but it's in some sense the right response.

[Quick-n-Dead]

Guys... I understand where you are coming from.  Like I said, I'm not a young kid, but I stand by my words better than most people I know.

While I am asking for help, and my personal situation is not the best, it wasn't to deter anyone from joining the project.  It was to show you how motivated I am at making this happen.

I am the mechanic of the whole thing, but I'm not the one who actually makes all the calls regarding it.

I am here to gain support through recruiting team members and getting advice as to the best way to get a demo out for now, and later a final product.

Telling me this and that that its not going to work isn't truly helping in the way you think, it's only making me more determined and even highly more motivated to ensure that it does happen.

My personal situation is motivation enough, telling me it's not going to work will only ensure that I become even more motivated in making it happen.

Granted, doing something for free is not a great motivator for others, but those who are just starting out and wanting to make a name for themselves might be a good start for them so they can actually move on to other stuff.  It's a resume' item.  They can then say that they have developed a game.

If this does work out, there will be money going around.

[PoV]

There are small game developers out there like Grin, whom I know a couple of.  I even know a couple guys at NovaLogic.  I may even be able to get an investor that I know in the next couple of months, I just have to seriously talk to him one on one.

Sure, everybody knows somebody.  But do realize the community here isn't just a bunch of "noobs".  There's a shocking amount of experience between all the man-lovin good times, and one of the highest number of regular GDC attendance ratios next to groups like Quarter to 3 and The Chaos Engine.  So understand it's not out of spite but:

"we've been there, or we've seen a lot of other people there, and it might not work out as well as you'd expect".

The best way to garner interest here is with product.  I know that can be tricky to show off without the team to produce it, but that's just the way it is.  The community here fosters the idea that a great artist or coder can stand out, and people of the community come together to create success for all.  These aren't modder forums.

[Quick-n-Dead]

The guys and I have concepts in our mind for artwork (conceptual art), but all of us lack the skills to put it to paper.

We seriously need help in the art department.

[Quick-n-Dead]

There are small game developers out there like Grin, whom I know a couple of.  I even know a couple guys at NovaLogic.  I may even be able to get an investor that I know in the next couple of months, I just have to seriously talk to him one on one.

Sure, everybody knows somebody.  But do realize the community here isn't just a bunch of "noobs".  There's a shocking amount of experience between all the man-lovin good times, and one of the highest number of regular GDC attendance ratios next to groups like Quarter to 3 and The Chaos Engine.  So understand it's not out of spite but:

"we've been there, or we've seen a lot of other people there, and it might not work out as well as you'd expect".

The best way to garner interest here is with product.  I know that can be tricky to show off without the team to produce it, but that's just the way it is.  The community here fosters the idea that a great artist or coder can stand out, and people of the community come together to create success for all.  These aren't modder forums.

That's why I am here... We aren't modding a game, we're creating it using a game engine that has already been developed and proven.  Attempting to create a game engine from scratch would be truly stupid on our part.

[PoV]

Great, well I wish you luck with it.  But do realize, to get attention here you'll need to show and not merely say you mean business.  You've got concept artist?  Great.  Stir up some interest with concept art, start a development blog, and all that social stuff.  Everyone else does it, so why should anyone be exempt?  TIG and indie games is a community, not a job board.

[John Nesky]

Tell your programmer(s) to make something interesting and presentable* ASAP.

*abstract is okay.

[Quick-n-Dead]

Great, well I wish you luck with it.  But do realize, to get attention here you'll need to show and not merely say you mean business.  You've got concept artist?  Great.  Stir up some interest with concept art, start a development blog, and all that social stuff.  Everyone else does it, so why should anyone be exempt?  TIG and indie games is a community, not a job board.

Actually, we don't have a concept artist at all.

I'm currently developing the community site.  Still have a bunch of stuff to do though, but it is available to the public.  Since it is still in development, I will only PM the site to people.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

it seems you want more tangible advice than just 'you're biting off more than you can chew and can't handle it, make a smaller project first' -- even if that warning is true, it's obviously not going to stop you. so here's some more tangible advice:

- don't use A7, it's very buggy and not at all appropriate for commercial game development. commercially successful games have been made in game design engines: MMF2, RPGMaker XP, and Game Maker for 2D, and Unity and Blitz3D for 3D. no commercially successful indie game has been made in the A5/A6/A7 line of engines, to my knowledge. partially this is because the engine is so unstable. so i'd really advise you to look to Unity or even Blitz3D if you're looking to make a 3D game.

- get at least someone on the team who is experienced. a team full of people who have never made a game before may make a game, but it'll be awful. almost nobody is able to make a great game on their first try. you'd have a much higher chance of success if you get a designer or programmer who has finished games before, especially if they're games you yourself play and enjoy. the distance between good game developers and bad is really, really big. it doesn't matter how good they are at the technical aspects, game design itself has its own set of considerations which require years of experience. simple things like pacing, balance, and so on are very easy to break and get wrong, it's an art more than a science. chances are you can't find someone like that without pay, but someone like that is essential. and everyone thinks they can do it: don't trust that someone says they can do it, trust only their record, trust if they've done it already or not.

[Quick-n-Dead]

it seems you want more tangible advice than just 'you're biting off more than you can chew and can't handle it, make a smaller project first' -- even if that warning is true, it's obviously not going to stop you. so here's some more tangible advice:

- don't use A7, it's very buggy and not at all appropriate for commercial game development. commercially successful games have been made in game design engines: MMF2, RPGMaker XP, and Game Maker for 2D, and Unity and Blitz3D for 3D. no commercially successful indie game has been made in the A5/A6/A7 line of engines, to my knowledge. partially this is because the engine is so unstable. so i'd really advise you to look to Unity or even Blitz3D if you're looking to make a 3D game.

- get at least someone on the team who is experienced. a team full of people who have never made a game before may make a game, but it'll be awful. almost nobody is able to make a great game on their first try. you'd have a much higher chance of success if you get a designer or programmer who has finished games before, especially if they're games you yourself play and enjoy. the distance between good game developers and bad is really, really big. it doesn't matter how good they are at the technical aspects, game design itself has its own set of considerations which require years of experience. simple things like pacing, balance, and so on are very easy to break and get wrong, it's an art more than a science. chances are you can't find someone like that without pay, but someone like that is essential. and everyone thinks they can do it: don't trust that someone says they can do it, trust only their record, trust if they've done it already or not.

Thank you Paul.  This is the kind of advice we're really needing.

[moi]

While I am the lead on the project, there is still another guy above me in the chain who is going to take over if I lose everything.  I talk to him daily and keep him informed, so he's complete aware and will take over if/when I lose my internet connection.

"Noone knows his real name, They call him.... the boss..."
</sarcasm>

More seriously, if you need cash quick (I'm kindof in a similar situation myself), you should maybe consider smaller, faster projects, like flash.
Many young people can make a few $100 with a shit game done in a couple weeks. I dont mean it's easy to do, but it might be a more realistic goal short term.
Having a portofolio of flash games can also help you see your strengths and weaknesses, and build yourself into a solid structure where you'll be able to undertake bigger projects, it's easier to abandon a flash prototype that you worked 3 weeks on, than a mmorpg or FPS that took the best of the last two years from you.

99,999% of non funded MMORPG/FPS projects get canned during the first 18 month

Of course it's just an idea, there are other opportunities, but in any case, work on a small sized project first.

Also, I'm not totally convinced that game devellopment is the best solution for getting out of an emergency situation.

[moi]

- don't use A7, it's very buggy and not at all appropriate for commercial game development. commercially successful games have been made in game design engines: MMF2, RPGMaker XP, and Game Maker for 2D, and Unity and Blitz3D for 3D. no commercially successful indie game has been made in the A5/A6/A7 line of engines, to my knowledge. partially this is because the engine is so unstable.

I think the guy who did "the wonderful end of the world" and "aaahhhh a disregard for gravity" uses this engine.
But Yeah Blitz3D is really the best current tool for 3d games.

[esc]

We are mostly looking at an FPS though mostly because the competition with anything in the RPG world is overwhelmed by games like ...

Isn't the FPS like the most competitive genre there is right now?

[Glaiel-Gamer]

So, we are confident we can do it, but we also realize that it's not going to compete with the big guys out there like EA, Activision, Sony and Microsoft.

This right here.
You will never be able to compete directly with a AAA title without a multimillion dollar budget on a presentation standpoint.

That's why most indie games don't try to compete with them. They try something new, and abstract instead, or even just 2D. There's not a lot of professional 2D games out there so it's an easy market to compete in compared to FPS/RPG.

Second, you say you already have a 3 person team? Good, go make a game with them. It does not take 5 people to make a marketable game. In fact you'll end up getting more hung up on organizing everybody that you'll lose time in making the actual game.

If somebody on the street said to you, "hey, I have a great idea, and need someone to work for me for free for a year. I'm a very motivated person", would you take the job? If you're response is "Well I'd need to hear the idea first" then that's exactly right, only magnified a hundred times here because we see on a daily basis people with a "great idea" and need someone to make it for them, and they have their friends already on the team. I get it all the time from friends and family and people I meet who find out I make games. It's always "hey you should do a game like blah..." and as a result we get numb to those type of offers and suggestions unless something really catches your eye.

I've joined on a couple projects from people with an idea and concept art. None of those have ever been finished.

The other thing is a 9 month dev cycle is pretty long for a startup project. Here's what a lot of the successes around here end up doing to  get their game off the ground (usually working solo or as a group of 2):

1. Prototype a game concept (give yourself 1 or 2 weeks to do so, ignore the graphics and sound unless they're necessary, don't go over the limit)
2. Post the game online and get feedback (use a tool with a high chance of getting exposure like flash or unity for best results)
3. Analyze the feedback
4. Repeat steps 1 to 3  10-20 times

They key here is to work under time restraints. If your game isn't immediately fun or special after 2 weeks, it won't be great in the end. Maybe good, but not great.
Secondly, you can make money off the prototypes. Set up a site, place ads on it, ask for people to 'donate to the prototype they like the best'. This will ease the pain of working for free but not necessarily fund a project.


The last thing you want to do is ask for people to commit a year of their lives to a project which only has a small chance of actually making money (yes you're motivated, that helps but it doesn't matter in the end). Anyone who actually has experience has learned to tune out any sort of request like this. You're lucky these people actually are giving you advice instead of cracking jokes then locking the thread on the first page. Take their advice, they know what they're doing.

[Quick-n-Dead]

Really excellent advice!  Thanks!

But, no one on the team knows flash.

3d/Animation/Rigging
Sound Engineer
C#/C++ Programmer

All my graphics are static, non-flash.  Then our business guy.

Agreed we are inexperienced together as a team, but others on the team have produced games.

[Quick-n-Dead]

While I am the lead on the project, there is still another guy above me in the chain who is going to take over if I lose everything.  I talk to him daily and keep him informed, so he's complete aware and will take over if/when I lose my internet connection.

"Noone knows his real name, They call him.... the boss..."
</sarcasm>

More seriously, if you need cash quick (I'm kindof in a similar situation myself), you should maybe consider smaller, faster projects, like flash.
Many young people can make a few $100 with a shit game done in a couple weeks. I dont mean it's easy to do, but it might be a more realistic goal short term.
Having a portofolio of flash games can also help you see your strengths and weaknesses, and build yourself into a solid structure where you'll be able to undertake bigger projects, it's easier to abandon a flash prototype that you worked 3 weeks on, than a mmorpg or FPS that took the best of the last two years from you.

99,999% of non funded MMORPG/FPS projects get canned during the first 18 month

Of course it's just an idea, there are other opportunities, but in any case, work on a small sized project first.

Also, I'm not totally convinced that game devellopment is the best solution for getting out of an emergency situation.

I am personally not looking for quick cash to get this going, but I am just one part of the entire cog of 5 so far.

We really want to do a nicely polished 3d FPS demo for investors.  But, keep it unique enough that it is not like others in the same genre.

I'm thinking something like the old Mech Warrior game personally.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

Really excellent advice!  Thanks!

But, no one on the team knows flash.

3d/Animation/Rigging
Sound Engineer
C#/C++ Programmer

All my graphics are static, non-flash.  Then our business guy.

Agreed we are inexperienced together as a team, but others on the team have produced games.

Learn flash. It's similar to java which is similar to C# so it shouldn't be a huge leap.

Drop the business guy. If you have no money, there's no need for him. Hire him back on if you must once your game is complete and ready to be marketed.

[Quick-n-Dead]

Really excellent advice!  Thanks!

But, no one on the team knows flash.

3d/Animation/Rigging
Sound Engineer
C#/C++ Programmer

All my graphics are static, non-flash.  Then our business guy.

Agreed we are inexperienced together as a team, but others on the team have produced games.

Learn flash. It's similar to java which is similar to C# so it shouldn't be a huge leap.

Drop the business guy. If you have no money, there's no need for him. Hire him back on if you must once your game is complete and ready to be marketed.

He's the owner.  Kind of hard to fire the owner, yanno?   He's handling all the finances of the company using his own personal money to get it going at the moment, but his funds are very limited also.  So, we can't get rid of him as he has the ultimate control over the company.

[aeiowu]

Hey Quick-n-Dead looks like you've got a hell of a drive and balls to boot. That's no small thing indeed. 

I'd urge you to take a step back and look at some of the things mentioned in this thread another time. All of the advice is very sound and from world-class game developers. Just think about that for a while. Some of the best, most successful indie game developers are giving you advice. Please listen.

I certainly understand your position, I had a similar attitude back in college. I struggled so hard for so long that I became really ferocious when it came to Getting Things Done. That's good and all, but it really blinded me. The big problem had always been Finding The Team so every other consideration fell by the wayside, but once I had, then I had a whole other set of problems to deal with that I hadn't considered.

That said, I just want to give you this one piece of advice about teams. Think about it. This is marriage. Do not take it lightly. Do not act on impulse. Make a calculated decision after a lot of research. Choose the game(baby) you want to make and do your best to be fully aware of the consequences/joys of that choice.

I wrote about my experience, please read this: http://mile222.com/2009/04/i-remember-when-i-started-my-first-business/

I hope this finds you well and if you have any questions let me know in response.

[undertech]

I am personally not looking for quick cash to get this going, but I am just one part of the entire cog of 5 so far.

We really want to do a nicely polished 3d FPS demo for investors.  But, keep it unique enough that it is not like others in the same genre.

You mentioned unique, yet mentioned right afterwards

I'm thinking something like the old Mech Warrior game personally.

Now I know what you may be thinking, "it will be like the Mech games, but with a twist!" but casting aside the amount of work it takes to even get a 3D mech game off the ground (ask Ivan) you've got some pretty hefty competition in the works. Ironically, the competition is mostly free games.
See:
upcoming free MechWarrior 4 rerelease
MechWarrior: Living Legends
MW5 is coming, but probably not for a long time.
Then there's Chromehounds on console.

MW4 is an old old game, but it is very solid graphically & otherwise and has a pretty loyal fanbase. Can you do better than a 9 year old game that is now free (legally)? Or should I say, can you offer an alternative experience people would be willing to pay for?
MWLL is a free mod for Crysis (which you'd have to pay for but it is cheap now) but it looks amazing at least in the graphics department. At least the visuals are not something you'd catch up to in 9 months.
Sorry I went overboard; I'm a big fan of mech games, and I would absolutely love one that focused the simulation rather than arcade aspects (like a marriage of MechWarrior and Falcon 3.0) and that seems to be an untapped market. How big that market is (or whether it even exists beyond myself) is anyone's guess.