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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignHow to make the oldschool FPS NOT boring?
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Author Topic: How to make the oldschool FPS NOT boring?  (Read 16885 times)
nayon
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« on: December 09, 2007, 02:02:49 AM »

Well, yesterday I was playing Painkiller, and some of you may or may not know I'm a great fan of DooMII, and I also love the first Serious Sam. Anyway, I've also played pretty mediocre/boring FPS's of this style, and I'm sure you know the style I'm talking about, Millions and millions of enemies in a dodge/shoot-fest... So, I'd like to discuss, what makes games like doom2, serious sam and painkiller entertaining, while others boring? What separates them from other grinding fps'es? basically they both have shooting many enemies, but one group is actually fun...
Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2007, 02:13:54 AM »

It's absolute carnage! I love how in Painkiller you actually rip the inndividual limbs off, there's ultra-exaggerated physics, it's a totally insane carnage-fest of blood and gore and it feels really satisfying.

Serious Sam was similar, but with less blood and more enemies. Fighting off a huge horde is great.

As long as killing enemies continues to give the player a sense of 'WHOOA' then it'll continue to be fun :D
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2007, 02:15:38 AM »

Do you think interesting and obscure weapons add to or subtract from the experience?

Also, I think the "SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT THEY'RE COMING AFTER MEEEEEE" factor makes it fun too.
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2007, 05:13:49 AM »

It's all about feedback and goals :-).

It's easy to put a few 3D models in a simple 3D world and use a gun to kill them. But how the world+models react to your actions is what makes the game fun. And killing the baddies is never the reason to play (or else all those "one box with 1000 monsters" type of custom levels would be fun).

Personally i love the oldschool FPS games, but only those who got feedback and goals right.

What i mean about feedback depends on the FPS game. It doesn't have to be serious (Duke Nukem 3D rules and is far from serious) or have detailed HDR graphics (or else people wouldn't still play them - and i'm talking about *new* people who were not around the days of Doom).

In games like Doom, DN3D, Quake, Painkiller, Sam, etc you are the uberstrong megahero who can save the earth (or his ass, depending ion the theme). The guy who faces hell, beats its demons and comes out alive. It may be unrealistic (as probably opposed to all those "you are a mere soldier like other thousands" FPS games), but many people play games to escape from reality. And many people would love to be such "gods among men" (as said in FEAR's introduction - BTW i consider FEAR to have more oldschool gameplay than many other FPS games).

However, such heroes cannot be only described in the game's manual. The game itself has to convince the player that he is actually capable of what the manual/story says. And this is done by feedback. Feedback from the user's avatar, feedback from the user's actions, feedback from the world itself.

To provide good feedback you have to leverage what is already known to the player.

The user's avatar cannot be a wimpy guy. While technically he *can* be both wimpy and uberstrong, Movies and action comics teaches us that strong guys are beefy and muscular (usually with extra muscles a normal human won't have, but we're not talking about normal men here). So the avatar has to follow these guidelines or most players will feel that their avatar is "lame".

Note of caution: many people will react to this by pointing at Half-Life's Gordon Freeman who is supposed to be a noob physicist, unrelated to any kind of action (before the accident) and wears rectangular glasses (notice how nerdy GF's glasses are - anyone knows, from movies experience, that cool glasses are mostly curvic like these and the glasses we saw Vin Diesel to wear in his movies - except these). Well, it's true but this image is quickly forgotten when he gets his first weapon - a crowbar (a melee weapon which he uses with ease - so the guy actually has muscles), and later some guns which he uses without problem. Besides, while other scientists are screaming around, he remains silent but instead goes to do something (cool guys act don't talk, and all that stuff). So basically, Gordon Freeman *is* a superhero somewhat, but when Half-Life 1 begins, he just don't know it yet.

But the avatar alone is not enough. Ok, you're an uberman but what's cool about it if you can't prove it? The environment must react to the players actions. Duke Nukem 3D was notorious for the environmental feedback - breakable glasses and items, holes from bullets, many ways for monsters to die, etc. In Doom the doors were *massive*, with bassy "strong" sounds. In Quake the whole world was made of solid rock and metal. Even your weapons - a double shotgun, a nailgun, an axe, etc - were made of the same material and their sound was strong.

In Blood and Quake, when you killed an enemy, pieces of his body would fly around. Now, many will focus on this being the reason for these games to considered from some as good games. However this is not the case. The "gibbing" itself is not what made the games good, but the idea behind gibbing - a strong feedback to the user's action. Of course since the game is all about shooting, and shooting mostly destroys stuff, gibbing the enemies is a strong feedback. And breaking stuff, like in Duke Nukem 3D, is also strong feedback.

But don't be fooled with reality and think that this is true because "that's what would happen in reality"! If those flying brains in Duke Nukem 3D instead of falling down in a bloody mess, disappeared into a strange plasma-ish cloud (assume for a bit that this was possible back then) with a wave effect of a moment that affected the whole screen (much like those explosions in Doom 3), the feedback would be as strong - or stronger.

Feedback doesn't only come from the actions, but from the world itself. Presentation is an important thing, especially in FPS games where you try to immerse the player in your world. Note that "presentation" doesn't mean "high tech graphics". Don't make that mistake. Good presentation means a coherent world where the player's character and goals fits in.

Many partial game mods or even official expansions can show this. Take Unreal 1's expansion for example. This expansion breaks almost everything i said above (like using a totally nerdy voice for the avatar between levels). But here i'll talk about the new weapons and monsters it introduced: both of them seem out of place. While the original game's weapons were all "alien" (in the sense that they weren't very familiar, like those in Doom) and designed like alien, the new weapons were more realistic and their design was too "human like". Granted, they were supposed to be designed by humans, *but* the default weapon was supposed to be designed by humans too! No, the real issue was that the art style (presentation) was different - ie. not coherent with the original game. And the monsters were similar too. Some reviewers bashed spiders for being too common. But you know, that wasn't the problem. Doom3 had spiders too, but their design was fitting in the game and besides they were one of the good monsters in the game. The problem was that these monsters were nowhere in the first game, while they were all over the place in the expansion, so breaking the game's coherence *and* that their design didn't match the design of the other monsters.

Presentation doesn't cover only appearance, but also animation and sound. Some amateur models can show the problem with animation: most characters (and monsters) have silly walking or attacking animations, which makes the whole game look silly and thus breaks the immersion. See how "determined" the walking and running animations in Quake and Quake 2 are! And notice that the monsters do stop attacking you while you attack them if the blow is big (Ogres fall down, soldiers become a bit dizzy, etc). Also another problem is sound: some sounds simply doesn't fit. And this is a usual problem with weapons. In Doom3, for example, the machine gun's sound is a joke. Compare it, to the sound (and aural feedback!) of Quake 1's nailgun, and you'll wonder how both come from the same people. Not to mention the silly sound of Stroggs in Quake 4...

But weapon design is a whole area itself. Technically hitting a monster with an axe or a broom is the same thing (in fact the broom can cause more damage just by increasing it's "damage" value). And sound is not the only problem here: the weapon has to be convincing not only on the looks and the sound, but also on the behavior. Unreal 1's "8ball" weapon is a nice example of this: the weapon looks devastating, the sound is supreme especially if you fill it! But the damage is minimal and the load time is slow. The first comes against the weapon's look and feel - eight rockets must do a huge deal of damage! Heck, on other games one rocket is enough to kill two monsters, while 8ball needs to be full in order to achieve the same thing! And the game itself doesn't help it either, since it presents it as the "gun of gods". The gun was supposed to be (because it was presented like that) the gun that would eliminate all Skaarj scum from the planet. Well, ok, but the problem is, in the time it takes to load the gun (so a Skaarj can actually die from it), the player already has been hit a couple of times (Skaarj doesn't wait) and when you finally release the rockets, the Skaarj side jumps and avoids them.

Many games got these wrong. It is also the reason that in 90s people were "bored of generic FPS games looking and behaving the same", yet the FPS games which were playing were doing the same thing, but did most things right. FPS games were (and still are, however not as much) a hot genre, so anyone made their own Doom/Quake/Whatever_popular clone, usually getting thing wrong. So players saw these clones, saw that the intention was to make a doom/quake/?? clone, saw that the gameplay was bad and decided that " generic fps are bad". But that's another story :-).

Whatever i said above, i think it applies to most FPS games. What makes *oldschool* games entertaining is the level design - or the "goal" i mentioned above (note that here when i say "level design" i don't mean the architecture of a level or how items are placed in it, but the whole design and behavior of the game when focusing on levels). Doom, Quake and Duke Nukem 3D doesn't have much of a story to tell and their mechanics are really simple. So what they have to show is pure gameplay. Some said that Doom (and Quake and DN3D) is all about finding cards and opening door. Well, this is mostly true and it's the backbone of the gameplay, but like a living being, it cannot rely only on the backbone (for most living beings anyway).

Doom's (and Quake's) level design was all about making you feel unsafe. You have an area cleared, go forward, kill some baddies, pickup a key, come back and there are new monsters. Some monsters are "deaf" - that is, won't hear your gunshots but they will attack you *if* they see you. These are good for traps (remember the cases where you killed everything in sight only to be killed by that monster which was hiding behind those boxes?).

Duke Nukem 3D's design is more "in your face", sporting more action and less traps. In Duke Nukem 3D the designers' goal was to put a lot of action. Duke was more equivalent to an action movie than a horror movie.

Serious Sam draws more from Duke Nukem 3D than Doom. In Serious Sam, the goal of the designer is to put as much brainless (=simple) action as possible. Unlike Duke, there is no major theme to drive the game. Everything is about gameplay only.

Painkiller, is like a serious "Serious Sam" :-) with some bits of Doom added.

While all these games may look the same from a gameplay perspective, in reality if you see the details, they're different. What makes them look the same, however, is their design choice of focusing on simple gameplay elements and goals (horror and/or action) and that the level design is made with these elements as the primary goal of the level. This comes in contrast to some other FPS games (or other games in general) where the primary goal is to have a realistic environment where the gameplay has to wrap itself around it.

These games' designers have a different goal, which usually is to produce a realistic experience. Some may like it, some may not. But this is a different discussion (personally i prefer gameplay-oriented FPS games).
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2007, 06:49:07 AM »

First of all, thanks for the awesome and inspiring wall of text. And yes, F.E.A.R. was also awesome, I forgot to mention that.

When I look back and watch myself, I realize that I show some behavior when playing these kinds of games. When I start, I'm usually "Alright then, bring on the baddies!" then a few monsters appear and get killed. I start to feel a little pumped. Then I enter a huge room, and monsters start coming from all directions. I suddenly go "...damn... now what am I gonna do?", then start blasting the monsters away with ease. Of course, I take a few hits, but I'm one man who has killed 423523 monsters, and they're only simply hurting me. and running around the room, shooting those monsters, I feel IT. IT is the rush, the extreme feeling I get from playing such games. You are right, IT is the feeling of being one badass superhero who can take them all. And I think music is also very important. I still remember the e1m1 music of DooM, you know, that one. Also, Painkiller has some real hard stuff playing in the background during combat. Music is a very important factor I think.
Another factor is the difficulty I think. It shouldn't be too easy. It should be challenging. The only games that I strive to complete on the hardest difficulty (save for nightmare on dooms and quakes, we all know they are impossible :D) are these kinds of games. I'm still on the last level of DooM2 on the hardest non-nightmare difficulty, and I still enjoy trying it. I reinstalled painkiller and am trying to Beat it on the second hardest to remember game mechanics, then I'll try the hardest if it's not like doom's nightmare. I did the same with serious sam too. Hell, I progressed many levels on nightmare in doom, just to say "fuck you!" in the faces of those undying monsters. I think that badass feeling I get is the source.

Modern FPS's have some faults, IMO. I own CoD4, and it's a nice game, pretty graphics and exciting etc, but it doesn't give me that insane feeling(didn't complete it yet so I haven't tried arcade mode yet). It's too much "aim, think, take cover" As you said, that's not badass. Also, the progresive health system that all modern FPS's use is horrible. It pushes you to wait, settle down, take a deep breath. In oldschool FPS's, you don't breathe. You hold your breath until they all die. Yes, it's not realistic, but hey, how realistic is any given fun game? Is Mario realistic?

Now I turn and look to my archive that contains my favorite games, and yes, it is so obvious:
FEAR
FEAR EP
Painkiller
Serious Sam
Sanity: Aiken's Artifact
Bet On Soldier
Prince of Persia Warrior Within
Prince of Persia Two Thrones
Doom (I don't have a box of doom2)
Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth
C&C First Decade
C&C3
Orange Box
Dark Messiah of M&M
Nosferatu: Wrath of Malachi


As it is obvious, except for CoC:DCotE, these are all games that do not care too much about photorealism and in general reality, but games that care about fun, action/horror. As I develop The Dungeon, I will be working on a side project, an FPS, and it will simply be full of awesome. It won't take itself too seriously, and hell no it won't feature progressive health.

Thanks a lot for the detailed post Bad Sector, you made my day :D
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2007, 07:03:41 AM »

NP, just make sure you make an awesome FPS :-).

Sound is a topic i barely scratched, but mostly because i was writing this post for around two hours :-P. Although i've been burned by sound at the past because of my own Nikwi game which had awful sound and no music (i believe that was the #1 reason it failed to create some atmosphere - that and the bugs :-P).

However you learn by doing mistakes :-).

Note that good music isn't necessarily "hardcore metal music". It is just music that -like the rest- "fits" in the game.
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2007, 07:11:48 AM »

Well I like "hardcore metal music", but of course not any metal song does it. It must have tempo, and it must be upbeat, but it mustn't rape your ears, it must be desirable. And also sound, sounds must give you the feeling of "WHOA, I blasted that SOB's head off!" and the weapons must feel really hardcore when shooting.  I guess you're right, it's all about feedback :D
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2007, 09:47:54 AM »

I can agree with most of what's been said. User feedback for his actions is a big part of designing a satisfying game.

I'd like to mention a very recent FPS for the PS2/Xbox I've been playing called Black. Black is actually a pretty fun, if minimalist shooter that focuses all of its gameplay on shooting things. It seems realistic at first, but you'll soon see that it's far from it, and that's probably what makes it so fun.

The thing about the game is that most of the time it's you plus maybe 1 or 2 teammates fighting 30 enemies, bullets flying everywhere, stuff exploding, your teammates screaming on your ear "Move GODDAMNIT!". then all of a sudden an RPG blast happens near you, and the character asks where the fuck did that come from, which is exactly what you are thinking. When you kill the RPG bastard, he literally explodes (though there is no gibbing, or blood for that matter, he's just thrown afar). Then you see a couple of soldiers running straight at you with so much armor they can take 2-3 headshots and 50 bullets to their torso. Those are the shotgun dudes, and they ARE menacing, like 'chainsaw enemy' menacing in which if they get close enough it's 3 blasts and you're dead.

Heavy machinegun enemies, when firing from afar, have a brighter, bigger, hotter looking muzzle flash that stands out and looks more menacing than most baddies' submachineguns, and they ARE much more menacing and deal a lot more damage, and you'll be cursing your luck for not picking up that sniper rifle all the way back.

Your controller vibrates heavily with most weapons fire, environments are heavily destructable, enemies will not hesitate in filling you with bullets the moment you get on their sight, when you use explosives you tend to blow a lot more than what you intended. All that makes the player feel like a superhero, like fucking Rambo rushing in and killing everything in sight and leaving a smoldering trail of destruction behind (helped by the fact fires and smoke tend to last a very long time, so you can get pretty impressed when you look back at your path of destruction).

It's a fun game. It can get a bit repetitive, though.
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2007, 09:57:45 AM »

yeah, and that's the bane of these games... Repetition.. The actual question I had in mind when opening the topic was "How to make it feel not repetitive", but it got sidetracked.... So, anyone got anything on that?

Serious Sam never got repetitive for me, neither did the whole doom series (excluding 3) and fear etc... how come?
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2007, 10:04:25 AM »

I think that it's really about the most obvious answer, throwing new stuff against the player. Black has a bit of that with varying level design, but even that can't hold its on for too long unless you're really creative. I think however that Black's biggest problem is pacing. The game's completely focused on shooting stuff, and that can be a problem because there's nothing else to do besides shooting wave after wave of enemies. There's no other activities to break the mindless shooting so you can rest a bit from it and be refreshed in time for the next onslaught. You 'can' explore around the large levels a bit, but little reward is gotten from doing so as you'll rarily find new weapons/ammo/health packs far from enemies. The environments also tend to look very similar in the graphical part.
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2007, 10:18:10 AM »

Did you know the Painkiller devs had a "2-3 new monsters every level" policy?  Also, Doom and Serious Sam have very creative level design. Fear was a little bit boring in that aspect, but its ultra-evil AI made up for that I guess. Anything else you guys would like to add?
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2007, 10:36:47 AM »

FEAR's biggest repetition issue was the fact there was only one type of enemy for the most part, but yes, they made up with a very intelligent AI.
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2007, 11:52:33 AM »

I think good level design is more important than introducing new enemies in every level. In both Doom and Quake at the end of the first episode you had saw almost every monster.
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2007, 12:04:52 PM »

Well but they wouldn't hurt, would they?
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2007, 01:10:05 PM »

No not really, but they won't make the game either. Consider Daikatana: it included many levels (actually around 70 maps) with new monsters every now and then and a totally new theme in every episode (4 episodes) and every episode didn't included any of the previous episodes' monsters. Yet it was unpolished (imho the game was good and with few twists here and there it could have been much much better) and badly balanced, so it flopped despite its positives (well ultrahype and bad PR helped here, but really if the game didn't have these flaws these wouldn't be much of an issue).
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2007, 01:31:50 PM »

I don't wanna have tons of new monsters monster every level, but a new monster every few levels will both keep the game spiced up and the player edgy. Of course, all of them will be unique monsters, not all monsters will be the same filler crap.
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2007, 01:44:52 PM »

Well that's obviously a good thing (a new monster every now and then). I assumed you meant you wanted 2-3 new monsters in each level, like the Painkiller developers :-).

Painkiller was able to do that because they had dedicated artists and a publisher to fund the development. It will be hard for an indie to do the same.
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2007, 01:49:37 PM »

Well actually the Painkiller team consisted of 10 people :D
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2007, 02:54:17 PM »

Sometimes it's good to repeat enemies for a while, then all of a sudden introduce a bigger badder one when the player least expect.

"Kay, lets go in this room, oh, more zombies, where's my shot- AH FUCK WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?"

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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2007, 03:00:00 PM »

Yeah, that's a nice one... DooMII did that :D I have so many awesome DooMII moments that I could bore everyone to death discussing them :D
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