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[mike]

Are you sitting down for this? They let women vote now.

  What!?!

... So that's what my wife was doing at the polling booth.
And I thought she was just there to sell cakes to raise money for the church!

</sarcasm>

lol.
Actually, I totally agree with you. I had similar reactions to the article myself.
Especially the amount of times they repeated the phrase:

... mobile RPG (role playing game), the first one in the world made specifically for a female audience.

(Or something like it... I'm pretty sure they didn't say it exactly like that every time).

But I am really interested in looking into the concept that women think that girls need games for girls. The designer of the game said she wanted to make the game because she saw there was a gap in the market and she wanted it filled (in essence).

I actually have a lot of female friends who love to play games, and some of them are probably more into games than most of my male friends.
What I'm saying is; I don't deny that girls can and do play games like Halo, Mario Galaxy, Cave Story and a wide range of other games...

I'm just interested in the approach the women in the article are taking.

I hope I'm being clear and don't look like a prick... lol.

[1337-n00b]

JohnyZuper, I hadn't thought of the artists vs. engineers thing, that's a good point. 

[Derek]

"EXPLODING GIRLS"
           \
           

[Calanctus]

I think it has a lot to do with this exact thread.

If you want games which appeal to women, stop trying to make games which appeal to women, because it's more than a little insulting to say: "Here, you'll like this; it has stuff about clothes and feelings and it's not too difficult for you."

I don't mean to be a jerk or nothing, but are you guys from the past?

I understand what you mean and I kind of agree with it, but I think you're setting up a false dichotomy here. There's no reason that a game can't be intelligent and engaging and also be something that's aimed primarily at women.

Somebody commented on the fact that women seem to engage with other kinds of arts more easily than video games. While that's somewhat true, I think you'll find that the audiences for the latest action movie are quite different from the audiences for the latest romantic comedy. Similarly, the average woman has probably read more romance novels than Tom Clancy thrillers, while the opposite is true of the average man.

Girls are not alien beings. They're just as intelligent, thoughtful, and fun-loving as men, and I believe strongly in treating them as such. But they're not exactly identical either, especially in large groups.

[Derek]

Oops - I was going to add to the discussion, but Phil's face scared me into posting prematurely.

If you're going to make a game that's targeting girls specifically, then I don't know... having some interesting female characters is a good start, maybe!

But generally, I'd prefer that games are built around actual themes and not demographics.  If you want to include women, as opposed to exclude them or target them, I'd say focus your game around themes that are fundamental to human nature.

But hey, I'm not sure if this sausagefest (minus Eden, of course) is appropriately equipped to answer this question.  It ends up being demeaning in some way no matter how you look at it.  Maybe we should ask our female friends, moms, and significant others what they'd be interested in seeing in a video game?

What do you think?  Interesting homework assignment?

[kitty]

I grew up on Zelda, Mario, and lots of Mortal Combat III. I don't recall playing any knitting or cooking games. I think I turned out perfectly fine.

[Eden]

is what we can do to make games as equally appealing to both genders as other media is (i.e. music, movies, books

1.)Get rid of the Macho culture.
2.)Make different sorts of games.

You know, it's mainly 1.

Michael has a point too. Most games are made by engineers.

Aaron, asking me what fantasy I want to see in a video game is kind of a silly question, because there's so many possibilities.
That's what a lot of devs don't realize. That the medium has all this super-dooper-awesome-mind-blowing-fez-hat-wearing potential, but they're only using a tiny bit.

I guess I'd like to see fantasy with different emotions. Different sorts of enertainment. Different Mechanics. Different stories.

But generally, I'd prefer that games are built around actual themes and not demographics

Mm. Agreed.

[skaldicpoet9]

I think it has a lot to do with this exact thread.

If you want games which appeal to women, stop trying to make games which appeal to women, because it's more than a little insulting to say: "Here, you'll like this; it has stuff about clothes and feelings and it's not too difficult for you."

I don't mean to be a jerk or nothing, but are you guys from the past?

Of course it is definitely insulting.

I do believe though that, just as with all forms of entertainment, there needs to be something that caters to women's tastes somewhat. I think it is absurd to stereotype games for women to center around shopping, fashion, love/relationships etc...however, I think that is equally absurd to say that developers should stop trying to create games that are aimed at women at all. In a perfect world I would love to see games that don't cater to any specific gender because there is little bit of something for everyone in the game rather then being strictly for guys or girls.

I think that this is what can really bring games to more women out there:

1.)Get rid of the Macho culture.

I definitely think that this is probably the number one turn off for women when it comes to games. Now I am not saying that girls don't like to shoot shit (because they do) I am just saying there are is certain "macho bravado" feel to a lot of games these days. I mean just look at God of War, now it is a game that could be enjoyed by everyone, however, I don't believe that most women(aside from a select demographic) would find the womanizing, chauvinistic aspect of Kratos personallity to be incredibly appealing. Or maybe I'm wrong

[team_q]

If you want games which appeal to women, stop trying to make games which appeal to women, because it's more than a little insulting to say: "Here, you'll like this; it has stuff about clothes and feelings and it's not too difficult for you."

Well, thats the problem though, this thread was founded on "game FOR girls" not "games girls will enjoy as well".  Also no one suggested dumbing down games for girls so that point is moot. Sorry, I don't think the "HEY Everyone can wear pants!" argument is necessary, the girls don't need defending, they do that well enough themselves.

I asked my sister, she said she is content with how video games are, she says she likes Unreal Tournament, Roller Coaster Tycoon and The Sims. She wants more "Role Playing". When asked what she doesn't like about videogames she replied linearity.

I asked my girlfriend. She said she wants more Fantasy and Folklore based games.
When asked what games she likes most she replied "MARIO!!!!" she also enjoyed Kingdom Hearts."I guess I like the games that follow a storyline"
When asked what she doesn't like about video games:
"I don't like the very violent ones...I'd never play a game like Call of duty or halo or bioshock, cause they are scary to me.
I like games that shadow a bit of innocence I suppose"

I asked my Mom. She said she likes games that force you to challenge yourself to get better, like Zuma and Big Brain Academy. She says that she doesn't like the violence, but she likes action.

[Musenik]

Thanks Eden, for mentioning "Dangerous High School Girls in Trouble!"

I'm going to use that title as my springboard into this puddle. I think, already, the war is over, but the last battles have yet to be fought. Women and Men can today draw from a huge variety of games suited to most tastes. And the variety is growing by leaps and bounds.

Yes, the industry is still full of guys, on the development side, but more and more women artists, producers, and designers are getting in. The business side has been well represented in the last few years. Programming, well, it's gender imbalance reaches far beyond the scope of the game industry.

As much as I'd like the discussion of gender privilege to continue, so I can hold up DHSGiT as an example of a game with young girls that strived not to be a girly game, I just can't get too motivated over the issue like I used to. For every FPS that shipped this year to boys, young and old, and more than a few girls, more than 10 casual games (not all hidden object clones) were played by a larger audience of men and women.

There's still work to do, and we need to keep aware of the issue. There are still salary battles and glass ceilings and in-gender in-fighting... sigh.

To conclude: The game industry, with their historical 14-year-old boy target, may have circled their wagons. It has now been encircled by a vastly larger tribe of post-apocalyptic metro-sexual men and women.

[Calanctus]

To conclude: The game industry, with their historical 14-year-old boy target, may have circled their wagons. It has now been encircled by a vastly larger tribe of post-apocalyptic metro-sexual men and women.

The funny thing is, I don't think teenage boys have ever made up a majority or even a plurality of gamers. There was a poll a few years ago that showed they were actually outnumbered by adult females, and there's a lot of other research showing that girls game a lot more often than popular conception would have you believe.

I think the real problem (if you can even describe it as such) is that females aren't very well-represented amongst the "hardcore."

[team_q]

But, here is the problem, I buy more video games then my girlfriend sister and mother put together, even though they outnumber me, I put way more money into "the video games industry".

Remember statistics lie, and its not like the Major video game producers are scratching their heads trying to figure out how to hit these niche markets, they are going where the money is.

[Musenik]

The funny thing is, I don't think teenage boys have ever made up a majority or even a plurality of gamers. There was a poll a few years ago that showed they were actually outnumbered by adult females, and there's a lot of other research showing that girls game a lot more often than popular conception would have you believe.

I think the real problem (if you can even describe it as such) is that females aren't very well-represented amongst the "hardcore."

'...a few years ago...' Go back a bit farther, to NES and SNES and Genesis and Playstation 1, that's what little boys were made of! (Funny thing, if you go back even farther, Atari 2600, there was a decent diversity of games played by both girls and boys: Pong, Pitfall, QBert, Centipede, PacMan, Mario ad naseum, Infocom? Sierra Quests?)

And 'hardcore' is a decreasingly important target, as considered by the game industry. But like TeamQuiggan says, they'll always be a factor, since they spend so much.

And another thing on the subject of money and sex discrimination. Recent studies showed that men and women are playing casual games on a fairly equal basis, but a significantly greater number of women are paying for them! Will that bias developers to womanize their titles just that much more?

[Blaster]

"EXPLODING GIRLS"
           \
           

And I read this as 'EXPLORING GIRLS', woops!


Edit to add to the discussion:

Pokemon. Every girl and boy my age pretty much played this game. This is actually quite a feat, as I think products aimed at children are often even more gender split than those aimed at adults. There are, of course, so many elements to its success, and the cartoon is probably more than half of this.

As for some of my female-friends who enjoy gaming, hmm, they tend to play/be interested in the same games that I do. No insights there.

The idea of marketing a game towards men or woman is a little deterring for me, I'd rather people just focus on making something /good/, or something that they themselves want to make and play.

Then again, most of the business aspects of anything tend to off-put me.

[MattC]

Recent studies showed that men and women are playing casual games on a fairly equal basis, but a significantly greater number of women are paying for them!

Possibly because "men" don't want to buy some game about baking a cake? Where are the casual games directed at males?*

*I'm not "hip" on the casual "scene" so I'm sure there are some, but it seems to largely be games for the "stay-at-home mom" stereotype that are being made.

[Musenik]

Possibly because "men" don't want to buy some game about baking a cake? Where are the casual games directed at males?

Casual games have gone through a lot, but their roots are asexual: Bejeweled, Zuma, various solitaires, Mahjong, Mystery Case Files, Bookworm. Before Diner Dash, there was Betty's Beer Bar, and although the main character was female, her actions were gender neutral.

Now that's changing. Today's top ten on Big Fish:

1. Mystery Case Files: Madame Fate
2. Mystery in London
3. Farm Frenzy
4. Fairway Solitaire
5. Agatha Christie: Peril at End House
6. Christmasville
7. Amazing Adventures: The Lost Tomb
8. Home Sweet Home
9. Holly: A Christmas Tale
10. Elf Bowling 7 1/7: The Last Insult

Since when did guys play Christmas games? Home Sweet Home? Farm Frenzy? All I can say is, put up the money or get shut out. The market goes where the money is.

Obviously, there are still a lot of cross-gender casual games. Will they fade away? I dunno.

[Michaël Samyn]

According to Sheri Graner Ray and others, the biggest problems of the accessibility of games to women is not so much that they don't contain elements that appeal to them but that they contain elements that are repulsive and insulting to them. Those won't go away if you ignore the problem. And in fact, it's only a matter of being polite, isn't it, to try and make your game not completely insulting to people who happen to have a different gender than you do.

The subject of casual games always comes up in this sort of discussions and how women customers rule in that space. But we really don't need this silly split like the one between romance novels versus boxing matches, do we?
I have a daughter of 10 and I'm disgusted by how games-for-girls appeal to her weaknesses. The pinkness, the sparkles, the smiling faces. It's like drugs! As much as I would like to see the macho and machine culture disappear, I also want to see "pinkness" burn in hell.

So, I guess I agree with Derek. Let's try and make games for people, and not for any particular demographic. But that doesn't mean we should focus on our own message exclusively. We should be aware of our audience and at least try to avoid insulting people.

[Eden]

Does she like The Forest, Michael?

[Chris Whitman]

The subject of casual games always comes up in this sort of discussions and how women customers rule in that space. But we really don't need this silly split like the one between romance novels versus boxing matches, do we?
I have a daughter of 10 and I'm disgusted by how games-for-girls appeal to her weaknesses. The pinkness, the sparkles, the smiling faces. It's like drugs! As much as I would like to see the macho and machine culture disappear, I also want to see "pinkness" burn in hell.

Man... I seriously see red when that stuff comes up. I have some additional points that I will probably raise over coffee tomorrow regarding the marketing mindset and such, but mostly I want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with this.

[Musenik]

As much as I would like to see the macho and machine culture disappear, I also want to see "pinkness" burn in hell.

I want there to be pink games and macho games and all sorts of games at every end along every axis.

And you're right, developers could do a lot by removing offensive material in their products... material that isn't necessary to the specific product.

I also want products that offend. I hope someone finds DHGSiT offensive. All our work would be for nothing. But I mainly hope most people will 'get' the satire and go with it.