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[dEnamed]

when you release a new game, even an indie game, you are *not* competing with every older game, with games that were released 5 years ago and are now 20% of their launch price.

But the thing is, they are. All the beautiful talk won't change the fact that one can technically get a game that's superior in all aspects for the same amount of money. Really, it's as simple as looking into your purse, seeing 10$ and asking yourself:
"Should I get this outdated game classic which is still a great game"
or
"Should I buy that new great Indie Game instead, which looks and feels like a much older game, and will offer far less content?"

I'm not meaning to say that Indie Games are not up to the task but they indeed are competing with those older games. Last but not least thanks to a technological gap. Even if hypothetically there weren't a gap, they'd be competing solely on the basis of both costing the same amount of money. As harsh as it sounds, most people don't care about supporting that guy. They care about getting the most out of their 10$. And the only point of view where this doesn't landslide towards the old commercial games is in the morale and ethics department.

I'm not saying Indie Games should change their pricing, hell no. The games are worth the money. But people not agreeing on the pricing are not retarded either. It's the competition to the left (Freeware Games) and right (old commercial games) at large. What's retarded is asking the Developer to give his game away for free. I totally agree that's really something on the scale of stupid but then again, the thread is nothing but the tip of the iceberg of a general business shift on Kongregate with VVVVVV sitting smack in the middle of it. 

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

two factors to consider are a) most people aren't that informed and b) most of the old games are already played.

regarding a), people tend to choose from options available in front of their eyes. games from the 90s generally aren't in front of their eyes. many of them can no longer be bought, and of those that can, they're not in a place that's easy to buy them, such as store shelves, or steam.

regarding b), often you aren't competing with old games because *people already played those games* -- so it's not an option for them to re-buy the same game they already bought; they want more, not the optimal best game. for instance, i think persona 3 is a great jrpg, but persona 4 isn't competing with persona 3 because i already played persona 3. the options aren't to re-buy persona 3 or buy persona 4.

[Melly]

I was writing a post, but Paul pretty much said everything I was gonna say, so I'll just say that I agree with him.

[alspal]

You have to remember that this game contains a "no death" mode. Good luck finishing that in 2 hours (I think that should have been the main mode). I wish I played only that mode, but I've already spoiled the game.

[Kekskiller]

What is this no death mode?

[s0]

You have to remember that this game contains a "no death" mode. Good luck finishing that in 2 hours (I think that should have been the main mode). I wish I played only that mode, but I've already spoiled the game.

Yeah well come think of it, games like Sonic or Mario Bros. aren't much longer (I'd wager shorter even) than VVVVVV, it's the fact that they force you to start from the beginning if you die (too much) that makes them seem "long". This was mostly compensation for technical limitations though and to be honest I'm glad V6 made it optional.

[Calabi]

One thing about that argument that you can always get an older game which is better/similar.  Can you? 

The good or bad thing depending on your point of view is that every game is its own unique product.  There is no game like it, unless its a direct clone, there will always be something in it that differentiates it from the others.

Games arent like cheese or socks, where the products are mostly the same, where the choice doesnt really matter(all cheese stinks, all socks keep you feet warm), the choice is how much do you want your cheese to stink, and how garish do you want your feet to look, irrelevant choices in my opinion or preferential if you like.

Games are like there own products in there own sectors, you might have two almost identical RTS games which have been made, but they wont be identical, one might be better than the other, they might both be equally good, but they offer slightly different experiences to one another(a different campaign or way of playing, etc).  They arent really competing(they are but they arent).  To certain people that cannot afford to buy so many games they will choose one or the other, to someone that can afford it, they may buy both as they know they offer differing experiences they are willing to pay for.

You wont find a game like this in the past or the present, because its done now, with lessons learned and aquired from the past, and with additional touch's that only a single person with that single vision can do.

Some games, are less unique than others, but every one is.  They are not like commodities.  Its up to the consumers to decide if that game is offering what they want.  They cant say I've played one jumpy platformer, or one RTS I've played them all(even if it seems that way). 

There will always be something worthwhile in new games to someone, somewhere, as long as they have no mitigating flaws, arent direct copies, or unlucky clones.

[DWWilson]

@DWWilson

You can't measure value simply on time spent. That's just silly. If that was the case WoW should cost a hundred dollars a month at least, despite 80% of what you do there is stand around or grind.

It's not the time, it's how much you took from the experience, how enjoyable that time was, etc. Or do you believe that a game filled with nothing but senseless padding is worth more than a tightly designed, shorter game because it just takes longer, more boring hours to complete?

I said it was a crude way of doing it, but you have to budget when you have no money. The extent to which a game exceeds expectations is called value, and I don't play boring games. 

I'd love to sell my game for $15 and have to money to buy VVVVVV for $20, but would you pay $15 for my game? In terms of man hours, I put 900 into drone, I could have had an extra $9k if I'd just worked a minimum wage job that entire time.

It makes me feel like shit to give it away, but that's life.

[DWWilson]

You know, (a lot of) people pay $1 for 2-7 minutes of music, but complain at $15 for 2+ hours of game.

I don't pay for music unless it fits my $2 rule, so the only music I own is on vinyl and is 30 years old. The rest is stuff from 8bitpeoples because it's free.

Seriously, I'm THAT broke.

[Iamthejuggler]

The music analogy is flawed, in that music has far greater replayability than even the best games.

[alspal]

Haha... good one. The very best games are just that, extremely repayable.

[Iamthejuggler]

The difference is the number of replays. I've listened to some of my favourite tracks 100s of times. If people are playing through games that many times then blimey. 

[alspal]

Arcade games (or games following the arcade philosophy) are generally very repayable, I haven't completed one yet.  Just look at the indie game Spelunky for example.

[Iamthejuggler]

True, but that wasn't the comparison being made at all. It was being compared to the longer types of game. Games like spelunky are indeed getting closer to music in terms of replayability. In fact the whole comparison was aimed at the $ per hour rate, which is silly in the first place!

[Valter]

If Terry Cavanagh really wants to make money off of VVVVVV, then he probably should make the full game free. But first, he should create a ton more content. Take the current content and multiply it by ten, so he effectively has 9 more games to sell to people who enjoy the original full version game, and he would make way more than 10 times as much money.

Oh man, this advice is solid gold.

[brog]

Seriously, I'm THAT broke.

If you don't like your life you can change it.
You've made a lifestyle choice not to have much money.  And that's cool and all, I just don't see why you're complaining about it; it's your decision.
If you're upset about your $2/hour rule, you could replay games to increase their value, or you could treat it as an average and play free games for a few hours to save up enough to buy something decent.  Or go to the library.  Man.

[Alex May]

I'd love to sell my game for $15

Then do so. I'd love to sell Eufloria for $20... oh look, I am.

Although I just tried to play your game and the installer chose an odd place to install the game; didn't run the game after installing or give me the option to; didn't add a shortcut to the start menu; started in fullscreen mode with no windowed option, and on each execution made an ear-piercing noise on startup which makes me never want to run the app again - definitely fix these things.

Also:
* Deleting the config file breaks the game. If it's not there you should recreate a basic one.
* DEFINITELY FIX the teleport noise it is annoying as fuck, I'm getting annoyed just thinking about it
* Your tutorial could use more telegraphing to show the player where to walk, the dark grey walls are very close to the black backdrop.
* You let me die in the tutorial! That's really not cool, especially when the inventory screen which was still open was covering the enemy. Have the tutorial enemy be passive.
* Can't skip the death screen.
* Needs sliding collisions! Sticking to walls is super annoying.

It makes me feel like shit to give it away, but that's life.

As brog said, your choice.

Notch is charging for the ALPHA of Minecraft and will sell the beta at full price. Just sayin'!

[DWWilson]

If you don't like your life you can change it.
You've made a lifestyle choice not to have much money.  And that's cool and all, I just don't see why you're complaining about it; it's your decision.
If you're upset about your $2/hour rule, you could replay games to increase their value, or you could treat it as an average and play free games for a few hours to save up enough to buy something decent.  Or go to the library.  Man.

Oh I'm not complaining about it, I like being able to spend 15 hours a week working a day job and 42 hours a week making games as opposed to the other way around. Just don't be angry at me because I have to reduce all entertainment to a commodity that I have to budget around.

I totally agree with what people are saying about how quality isn't a factor in my calculations. If I ever manage to sell one of my games, then perhaps then I will have enough money to afford taste.

Or I might just give up and get a full time job, I'll decide in the coming weeks pending the reception of my first actual game. Except I did a commerce degree and the thought of doing that full time makes me want to kill myself lol.

[DWWilson]

Although I just tried to play your game and the installer chose an odd place to install the game; didn't run the game after installing or give me the option to; didn't add a shortcut to the start menu; started in fullscreen mode with no windowed option, and on each execution made an ear-piercing noise on startup which makes me never want to run the app again - definitely fix these things.

All these things are fixed.

* Deleting the config file breaks the game. If it's not there you should recreate a basic one.

It shouldn't do that, I'll fix it asap.

* DEFINITELY FIX the teleport noise it is annoying as fuck, I'm getting annoyed just thinking about it

you think that's bad, you should have heard the other one I had... but yeah, I'll fix that right away.

* Your tutorial could use more telegraphing to show the player where to walk, the dark grey walls are very close to the black backdrop.

I'll also fix this.

* You let me die in the tutorial! That's really not cool, especially when the inventory screen which was still open was covering the enemy. Have the tutorial enemy be passive.

If it couldn't kill you then you wouldn't learn your lesson.

* Can't skip the death screen.

Well, you need some kind of punishment for failing. It's only a 5 second pause, I could make it lower... did you really die that much?

* Needs sliding collisions! Sticking to walls is super annoying.

Yeah I should fix that, but I fail at programming. Once I've fixed all the other things I'll get right on it.

Thankyou for playing it and having the decency to let me know what you thought. I can't fix things if no one tells me what is wrong with it.

And yeah I *could* try and sell it for $15, but no one would buy it. With all due respect, You're Alex Fucking May, Eufloria got nominated for a IGF award that's the big time right there.

Anyway, I will fix that sound, the wall contrast, add music and fix the .ini file thing and have it up saturday evening if you are still interested in trying it. What did you think of the actual game though? Or did that sound scare you away? How was the fps?

Sorry for all this random feedback questions, I shouldn't further derail this already derailed thread.

[Alex May]

Will reply in feedback thread!