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[HybridMind]

UPDATED NOV 20th

Hoping for some difficulty curve and "how fun is it" feedback on this latest 3rd beta play test release of my Flash game Bomb Diver.  At the very least I'd just love to know at what point or wave # the game loses your interest.  All other feedback welcome of course!

UPDATED NOV 11th

Since I last posted about this game here I have been working hard on the feedback I received from the first round of playtesting.  Thank you all very much for your comments.  I've update the build to the latest version and it has changed a TON.

If anyone has a chance to put it through it's paces again I would really appreciate it as I'm dedicated to making this game as fun as it can be.  It is the largest game project I've worked on yet and I am having a lot of fun working on it right now.  I've put more than a month full time into this project and I guess it is likely still in the 80-90% complete range:

Play Bomb Diver

Here are a few updated screenshots with captions:



Flying along with your jetpack collecting some ammo--avoiding the bombs!



Buying some supplies and upgrades



Defending your city

Goals:

• To make a fun action game with a heavy nod to retro aesthetic graphics and music
• To explore linking quickly changing gameplay genres (1st stage is avoider/collector, second stage is missile command/shooter, shop stage is strategy/upkeep)
  
• To gain experience working on a larger scale game then what I've worked on previously with many params, an upgrade shop system, and more advanced menu/UI requirements

Feedback requested:

I am open to all feedback whether it is positive or negative but I'll pose some of the questions I'm asking myself that are most important to me right now:

1) How fun is this?  
2) What can I do on the difficulty curve side as I try to balance ease vs challenge?
3) Any major oversights or gameplay horrors I'm not seeing here?
4) What do you think of the audio, music, and art?  I've been slowly bringing certain areas of the game up to speed but there are definitely some shoddy areas remaining where things are still a little beyond placeholder.

A few big items I'm planning still:

1) There are currently 5 bomb types implemented and I have a list of about 3-4 more.
2) I have an idea of something to add to the parachute stage over waves so that there are some other obstacles (probably enemy planes that fly under you shooting up to make the collecting tougher.)
3) More robust city below with more building types
4) People in the city and perhaps the city stage having a different element or mini game dealing with making the citizens hide ahead of the bomb attacks.  Just looking for ways to make the city more interesting.
5) More shop upgrades for the player and the game
6) More powerups.

Once again here is the playable link: Play Bomb Diver

Thanks again anyone who can leave me some constructive feedback.

Best regards,
Dave


Version History:

v0.8.5 - Nov 20th, 2009 (latest build)

• Made the game 20 waves instead of 10
• Added a TON of new params that I can control across the waves
• Used the above params to redo the complete difficulty curve again to address issues of the game still being way to hard based on playtest feedback
• Added new enemy plane that shoots up during parachute stage on later waves

v0.8.4 - Nov 12th, 2009

• Capped player jetpack velocity so player can't mega jump with extreme mouse movements.
• Redid How To Play screen to be even more minimal
• Undid 'S' binding for sound off because people were hitting it by accident since it was in middle of A and D left/right keys
• Made it so 'M' key now just mutes all sound and music
• Made all bomb patterns have 15 bombs a piece instead of 5-15 variant
• Made all ammo patterns now have 10 ammos instead of 5 each
• Rebalanced waves bomb pattern numbers
• Rebalanced minimum free ammo patterns given to player during first 5 waves
• Fixed bug in shop where ammo became free if explosion size was upgraded to level 3
• Fixed bug where custom cursor was still showing in pause screen
• Adjusted Pause screen to show the world still but tinted blue-white
• Made some cosmetic changes to main game menu

v0.8.3 - Second beta test release, Nov 11th, 2009

v0.6.1 - First beta test on Oct 21st, 2009

[ortoslon]

i had fun for three minutes, then quit. the game was quite easy for me, but i can't say anything about the curve because i was playing for too short. idea: player can control the distance of a grenade throw by holding the mouse button.

[HybridMind]

i had fun for three minutes, then quit. the game was quite easy for me, but i can't say anything about the curve because i was playing for too short. idea: player can control the distance of a grenade throw by holding the mouse button.

Thanks for giving it a whirl!  I appreciate you letting me know how long you played until quitting. As far as the button hold determining grenade throw are you suggesting that to make it more difficult?  I ask because currently range is controlled via the aiming cursor's distance.  I just wanted to know if that was the reasoning or if you are just suggesting an alternate control mechanic you like. I did consider that method but the aiming cursor is the first style I implemented so far.  I guess the cursor could still show direction and then the mouse button would handle charge up.  Hmm.. thanks for the thoughts!

[ortoslon]

I ask because currently range is controlled via the aiming cursor's distance.

i didn't know that (only read instructions inattentively)

[HybridMind]

I ask because currently range is controlled via the aiming cursor's distance.

i didn't know that (only read instructions inattentively)

Oh I meant just implicitly that you must have seen that clicking shoots a grenade towards your aiming site (since I'm guessing you made it to the stage where you fire.)  That's all I meant. 

[PlayMeTape]

This holds some promise if you work on it. I can see this developing into one of those addictive flash games .

Some things I think could stand improvement:
The visuals, personally I don't like the mix of sprites with those backgrounds. I'd go for one or the other throughout the game. (This also includes menu and UI).

As you said you should add more content, because right now it isn't very varied. But it also has to be more challenging (you want people to a play it a couple of times right?). I'd probably change the firing method to what ortoslon described. I would also lower the ammo count, increase explosive range and decrease the amount of bombs the city can stand.

[Curseman]

I didn't notice that I was taking damage from the shrapnel at first.  I think it would be good to make it more clear that that hurts you, but I don't know how to go about doing that.

You'll have to throw in a lot of variation to keep the game interesting for 10 full levels.

[G.I.L.]

Its a fun game, but I found a glitch.
If you right click then move your mouse the player disappears.
Although It doesn't affect the game play much.

[HybridMind]

Some things I think could stand improvement:
The visuals, personally I don't like the mix of sprites with those backgrounds. I'd go for one or the other throughout the game. (This also includes menu and UI).

I definitely agree!  It is my intention to go with full sprite art for this game.  The menus, menu background art, and city graphics are all just placeholders.  The UI is also totally crap and placeholder too until the gameplay settles down.

As you said you should add more content, because right now it isn't very varied. But it also has to be more challenging (you want people to a play it a couple of times right?). I'd probably change the firing method to what ortoslon described. I would also lower the ammo count, increase explosive range and decrease the amount of bombs the city can stand.

Yeah I'm definitely getting some feedback on stage two being a little odd.  Some people mentioning that it is frustrating that aiming and moving are tied to each other as it tends to send the parachuter into bombs.  I totally agree and had just gotten too used to it apparently so it is nice to get that perspective. 

I definitely have some ideas to change stage two a bit control wise though with some of the feedback I'm getting in and the thinking I've been doing I may be altering stage two in other ways as well too. 

Good suggestions on tweaking the ammo count and explosion size.  I did build a pretty good Level Manager class which allows me to easily alter every game param on a per level basis.

I didn't notice that I was taking damage from the shrapnel at first.  I think it would be good to make it more clear that that hurts you, but I don't know how to go about doing that.

You'll have to throw in a lot of variation to keep the game interesting for 10 full levels.

Good point on user feedback regarding shrapnel!  Yeah, the 10 levels were just an initial setup to give the game a basic vector to get some playtest feedback.  I may do more or less or do away with set levels all together.  It'll depend on where the game ends up I guess.  The 10 levels let me initially setup a base test of bringing in various bomb types and difficulties to get initial ideas and feedback flowing.

Its a fun game, but I found a glitch.
If you right click then move your mouse the player disappears.
Although It doesn't affect the game play much.

Thanks for the bug report.  Yeah, I've been noticing issues with player accidentally right clicking.  I'll need to see if I can detect whether the mouse cursor is showing or not and re-hide it if that happens.  I hadn't seen the player disappear yet though!  What browser/OS are you using?


Well, thanks for trying it out and leaving me your feedback.

Further thoughts:

Some current ideas I have based on my own thinking combined with feedback I've been getting from playtesters of various sources is as follows:

I'm considering altering Stage Two so that it emphasizes the city and city heatlh more and less the vulnerability of the player.  It may be that the player in stage two doesn't need health at all and in fact takes up a position in the city to then shoot without moving at the falling bombs.  Possible ideas include having the player parachute down onto various weapons points on the city to open up different weapon types or at the very least have a fixed point that they will then shoot their grenades from.  At this stage the focus will be more on destroying the bombs from hurting the city health than the players and will feel less disconnected from the city (where most people don't even realize there is a city below them especially the first time playing.)

I'm considering possible upgrade systems as well if I can get player and city items that are interesting and varied enough to warrant that type of mechanic.  I have a few more bomb type ideas as well as a whole raft of bonus/powerup items.

Possibly another mechanic to add in is that bomb shrapnel can trigger chain reactions with other bombs so that instead of being annoying there will be more of a point to shooting bombs which emit shrapnel.

I definitely am working really hard on making this silly little game as fun as possible and value your continued feedback.

[William Broom]

I found that it was impossible to worry about the city's health, because the player dies so easily. This is made worse by the fact that you often can't aim properly at the bombs you want to destroy because it will propel your character into another bomb.

Also, I eventually died because one of those yellow shooting things fired at me from the side, making it impossible for me to avoid. Making the parachute part of your hitbox seems kind of unintuitive.

[HybridMind]

New build posted and ready for a second round of playtesting!  Please see the first post in this thread as I have updated it to reflect the current version.  Thanks again.

[Stegersaurus]

Hey HybridMind, nice concept. Definitely got the Missile Command vibe from this game. I like how you move through the level on your way to the defense mode, especially once I figured out I could influence the amount of bombs that would come at me later by doing things like routing mines or yellow diamond shooters into destroying bombs for me.

Here's some thoughts I had while playing

1. I accidentally turned sound on/off at least 3 times while playing, because s is between a and d
2. Number keys are "just" out of reach for me while moving left and right. This is an odd thing for me to say because I'm very used to number keys being used for weapon-swap in games, but I think that's because on FPSs I use w as well, so I have at least one finger higher on my keyboard to begin with.
3. Ammo conservation felt a bit unforgiving to me, to the extent that I didn't want to increase my rate of fire because it would just use more of my precious ammo. I'd rather have an upgrade that gave me more ammo per pack picked up. I felt like some upgrades were a lot more useful in the long run than others.
4. Parachute bugs me, because it always distracts me when a game lets me move my mouse outside of the window, without any visual indicator for me to track where my mouse was to begin with. Maybe it's not that bad to show the cursor the parachuter is following.
5. Some info I wish was more clear to see. For example the powerup icons are really small.

[HybridMind]

Hey HybridMind, nice concept. Definitely got the Missile Command vibe from this game. I like how you move through the level on your way to the defense mode, especially once I figured out I could influence the amount of bombs that would come at me later by doing things like routing mines or yellow diamond shooters into destroying bombs for me.

Thanks so much for trying it out and leaving your feedback!  I was hoping people would start to catch on that they should be trying creative ways to take out the bombs before they reach the ground.  If you have enough health kits you can do suicide attacks on shrapnel bombs and you already discovered the mine bomb strategy too!   I don't think I let the yellow shooters destroy bombs but I did consider that.  There is a balance between blowing up too many bombs if you aren't careful because they can hurt your supply balloons too.  I'm also considering implementing a left/right punch mode when you are in your jetpack to hit the bombs to start them smoking (and then you fly away and they explode.)

Here's some thoughts I had while playing

1. I accidentally turned sound on/off at least 3 times while playing, because s is between a and d

Good point on the S key being too near the movement!!  Originally I had just M for mute all but then I wanted people to have option to keep one or the other (sound or music.)  I can move that though.

2. Number keys are "just" out of reach for me while moving left and right. This is an odd thing for me to say because I'm very used to number keys being used for weapon-swap in games, but I think that's because on FPSs I use w as well, so I have at least one finger higher on my keyboard to begin with.

Yeah I haven't been 100% happy with the # keys for powerups.  I originally thought like you that I'd been used to using #s for FPS games.  Not sure what to do though.  Maybe map them to letters too?  I guess that might be annoying in other ways since they aren't in a line.  I'll ponder that.

3. Ammo conservation felt a bit unforgiving to me, to the extent that I didn't want to increase my rate of fire because it would just use more of my precious ammo. I'd rather have an upgrade that gave me more ammo per pack picked up. I felt like some upgrades were a lot more useful in the long run than others.

I am currently thinking based on how hard a lot of people are saying this game is still that I should up the initial ammo amount so that beginning players have a better shot as they learn the controls rather then just failing miserably.  I also like your ammo upgrade idea.  I've been brainstorming a bunch of them but didn't have that exact one on my list yet so thanks.  I also agree that some aren't as useful currently.  This is the first time I've made an upgrade shop system before and I am realizing it really increases the amount of variables and balancing you have to do.  It is a fun challenge though for sure. 

4. Parachute bugs me, because it always distracts me when a game lets me move my mouse outside of the window, without any visual indicator for me to track where my mouse was to begin with. Maybe it's not that bad to show the cursor the parachuter is following.

Hmmmm.  I'll have to think about this some.  I do want it to be mouse controlled (rather than left/right) but you are right that I often swing my mouse way outside the boundaries of the game (even though it doesn't do any extra good.)  If I display some kind of non-aiming reticule based cursor perhaps that would help?  I'll have to test that out.

5. Some info I wish was more clear to see. For example the powerup icons are really small.

Good to know.  Always fighting the screen real estate versus UI challenge...

Well thanks again for leaving your feedback!

-Dave

[Draknek]

I'm really bad at shooting down the bombs. It feels to me like either the blast radius of your grenades should be bigger or there should be some kind of chain reaction so that you don't have to shoot down every bomb individually.

But possibly I just suck and need to learn how to adjust my aim better.

[HybridMind]

I'm really bad at shooting down the bombs. It feels to me like either the blast radius of your grenades should be bigger or there should be some kind of chain reaction so that you don't have to shoot down every bomb individually.

But possibly I just suck and need to learn how to adjust my aim better.

The shooting mechanic is "Missile Command" style which seems to be throwing a lot of people off who are more used to a mechanic where your grenades would explode on contact with the bombs. 

There is a design problem where in order to support the mechanics I want (accuracy of aim and combos for taking out more bombs with one shot) I can't have the grenade collide with the bombs because this would prevent the player the ability to land a nice shot within a grouping of bombs.  The grenade is set to explode wherever the player clicked.

Not sure how to make it more clear besides people just 'getting it' if they play a few times.  I am adamant about not changing that part because I really love that missile command style of a well placed shot with leading the bombs velocity.

In order to encourage player retention as they learn this mechanic I have tried to make it easy and as painless as possible to retry a wave and the first wave is very short as well.  I'm open to any creative ideas that help me solve this learning curve while also still preserving the mechanic I want.

As far as player grenade explosion radius that is one of the things you can upgrade in the shop.  Of course you need to be able to survive to get to the shop but there are 3 upgrade levels available (as well as weapon rate of fire and grenade travel speed.)

Regarding chain reaction: I do mix that mechanic in for sure on waves 2+.  There is a second bomb type introduced (out of 5 total currently (4 more planned) ) that is a Shrapnel bomb.  There is also a Mine bomb also.  Both of these emit projectile shrapnel that will trigger other explosions.  I love chain reaction mechanics and it does figure in heavily passed the first wave.

Thanks for the feedback though.  I am definitely interested in hearing how far people are getting and what problems they are running into.  I am such a "pro" at this game obviously being the creator that I have absolutely no perspective on how hard it is. 

[HybridMind]

UPDATED NOV 20th

Hoping for some difficulty curve and "how fun is it" feedback on this latest 3rd beta playtest version of my work in progress flash game Bomb Diver. 

At the very least I'd just love to know at what point or wave # the game loses your interest.  All other feedback welcome of course!

I've been working on this game full time for a month and a half now and am continually looking for outside perspective and constructive feedback.  Thanks a lot!

Play Bomb Diver here

v0.8.5 - Nov 20th, 2009 (latest build)

• Made the game 20 waves instead of 10
• Added a TON of new params that I can control across the waves
• Used the above params to redo the complete difficulty curve again to address issues of the game still being way to hard based on playtest feedback
• Added new enemy plane that shoots up during parachute stage on later waves

(see top post in thread for full version history and game info)

[Draknek]

On wave 6 I got no ammo drops at all...

This build is a lot easier, but it still feels like I'm doing fairly badly and the game is just letting me get away with it more now. Don't have any suggestions for how to make it feel easier though, I'm afraid.

[HybridMind]

On wave 6 I got no ammo drops at all...

This build is a lot easier, but it still feels like I'm doing fairly badly and the game is just letting me get away with it more now. Don't have any suggestions for how to make it feel easier though, I'm afraid.

Thanks for trying it out again!

Oh man--yeah I'm starting to get a lot of feedback already now that players can actually get to wave 6 that people are playing without ammo.  

What is happening is at wave 6 all the freebie ammo stops being given to the player.  My hope was that players would have caught on by then that they need to buy more ammo then what is given.  Apparently I am not making that clear enough at all because people aren't getting that they should do that and are just thinking the game is no longer giving them ammo.  I'll have to ponder good ways to address this.

Each wave you can buy supplies up to a MAX amount.  This MAX amount slowly decreases as the waves advance. This is to add to difficulty as well as compensating for players upgrading the explosion size.  Just something I'm testing out right now.

As far as the game letting you get away with playing badly:  Well, I can't think of anything other than giving the player a chance to adjust and learn the game without crushing them.  At least those players won't leave crying then...   I know that some people have done pretty well with the game so there is always that challenge of figuring out where the difficulty fulcrum is hitting.  So many things to ponder...