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[Ben Kuhn]

Oh sweet, fullscreen.

In other news, I suck at this game. Makes me really sad because I want to get all the juicy later upgrades, but I've never gotten past level 5. (And that was on the previous version when it was lagging, which seems to have been eliminated now, so I don't know that I'll be able to make it even that high.)

Ah well, I guess with practice I'll get better...

[droqen]

0.95 is uploaded; allow me to apologize for the steadily increasing filesize :/

Ben Kuhn: Yes, fullscreen is finally here! And - I've lost touch with what is good and what isn't, as I've done some gameplay tweaks (I may remove the 'blank' items from Talent). But don't worry, I'm sure you're getting better -- and let me note there isn't anything above level 5, unless you haven't managed to see all the 5th tier ones unlocked.

Titch: That error will never grace your screen again with its presence. (Well, not by my hands anyway)

[mokesmoe]

If you put the dll in system32, you have to restart your computer for it to work. A bit late, but whatever.

EDIT: Filefactory doesn't like me, could you mirror it?

[JMickle]

Droqen, send me a list of sound effects you need.

[Titch]

Got it working today. Rather cool. I think I'll be playing more of this in future

One thing that bugged me was being 'thrown' by falling damage. It just doesn't really make sense in -any- universe and it took me a while to work out why it was happening. The other thing is that the probability swings around a little too much making it visually distracting.

[droqen]

Titch: ^^ Yay! Awesome, I'm glad :3

Titch + Like Everyone Else Ever: on the note of knockback, I have been receiving a lot of comments about it feeling off. I could remove the "Fighter Stance" upgrade completely (I would probably drop the Attract ability down to that first-level slot as well as generally improve it) and negate knockback upon falling damage, as well as generally make it not as bad (once you touch the ground again, stun ends immediately?).

mokesmoe: It should already be mirrored (mediafire), but if you're having troubles with that too, I can add it to my old host which seemed to work perfectly (if slowly, but what free server isn't?) for everyone.

JMickle: Yaayy ... it's gonna be a pretty hefty list, but hopefully a very complete one

[Titch]

To me, a 'hit the ground' effect would be more like a momentary stun where you can't move, as in Zelda. I guess from a mechanics point of view it's a bit of an inconstancy. I don't mind being pushed back when I hit an enemy. It's pushing me away from something dangerous. It's just the ground -stopped- being a threat after I hit it XD.

[droqen]

Hmmm. You make a good point.

Drawing parallels to Zelda games is always a good way to get a point across xD


What you said makes a good deal of sense -- falling knockback is on its last legs, people! Wave goodbye lest the sharks eat it before it sees your hand in the air. Or something.

[Dacke]

What you said makes a good deal of sense -- falling knockback is on its last legs, people! Wave goodbye lest the sharks eat it before it sees your hand in the air. Or something.

Looking forward to it!

[Dom2D]

Really good job, can't wait to see the no-knockback version

[Curseman]

I was going to suggest that the first stance ability cut the stun time from being hit in half (without taking away any invincibility frames), and then having the second stance ability remove hit stun entirely.

I'll have to try what you have in store though.

[mokesmoe]

I was going to suggest that the first stance ability cut the stun time from being hit in half (without taking away any invincibility frames), and then having the second stance ability remove hit stun entirely.

I'll have to try what you have in store though.

This is a neat idea, but I'll wait to see what you have in store too.

[droqen]

Vanguard, this is a neat idea that I was considering earlier, and having implemented it now (thank you for bringing it up, I like it) it's nice. New: The first stance ability causes stun to still knock you back a little, but at a severely reduced amount as well as lasting not quite as long. The second means that you can walk through pain, so long as your body can take it.

I must say it's rather fun jumping into an enemy and beating it up from the inside with fear only of dying, and none of being knocked around like a small balloon.


Falling is less scary, but you are still not going to enjoy taking damage!

[ With these recent changes, I am considering returning fall damage to its original height. Stay tuned. ]


Finally: Cool. New people! ^^
edit :: oh, also. there was once an ability to make things that cared not for you gently sidle towards you. that ability is now a tier higher but much, much much better. it's like replacing a magnet... with a really big magnet. the ability is certainly more worthwhile.

[Ben Kuhn]

When I try to run the .pyc file, I now get an ImportError: No module named audiere. I believe the previous version worked. The .exe works fine. I assume there's another dependency now that you didn't mention?

I might just suck at the game (in fact I do suck at the game) but I often feel that I'm getting hurt because the level generator handed me a crappy sequence. That may be your intention, in which case I'll just declare myself too wussy and stop complaining, but there are certain sequences even in the early levels where there's an inescapable spiked block or no jump that's short enough. And in a game where health is so precious, it seems a little unfair to have the game just randomly decide to take some away.

Again, I'm totally willing to accept that you intend for the game to be this vicious, in which case I'll stop whining and admit that it's too hard for me. I'm just wondering if it's your intent to engender feelings of injustice as well as despair.

Regardless of which, the game is still satisfying enough that I keep playing and keep thinking, maybe I could do better if I just worked at it a little more. So congratulations for that, and I await the next version eagerly.

[droqen]

Ben Kuhn: Unfortunately, yes, I did. Pyglet's media thing was being disappointingly annoying, and as a result I have switched to Audiere (which has another dependency of its own, NumPy or something annoying). This has been mentioned in the first post, but I should probably make it more obvious. (I truly am sorry I had to switch to a different module entirely for audio.)


Now, in regards to the nastiness of the level generator:

It's random, for one thing, so sometimes you are supposed to run into a challenge. I can't control exactly when, because designing it to churn out challenging areas versus easy areas is something more difficult than I'm willing to handle for the moment. When you run into a challenge, you're meant to
1) Fail to it, in which case you promise to yourself to do better the next time.
2) Avoid it, by jumping up and around to an easier, different venue of progress.
3) Go through it. Some things that seem impossible are, in fact, possible with the correct timing and dexterity which I haven't really mastered, but have become good at.
4) Realize it's actually quite impossible, in which case it kind of is my fault. Sometimes you just have to grin and bear it, and taking damage is unfortunately inevitable. If you are running into these too frequently, note that it may simply be a challenge you are not ready for, or do not notice an escape route around.

In the case of #4, I apologize. In the case of #1, try getting better at 2 and 3.


I'm glad that you think you'll be able to do better, because I believe you will. Platforming skill is important! And you'll feel so much better about doing those crazy jumps that you once thought impossible.

[Ben Kuhn]

Thanks for the prompt reply! Glad to know you're not out to get me. I think I should stay higher on the screen. Maybe that will help.

If you're looking for good ways to control the impossible-platforming aspects, one common avenue (which may be called Markov Chains? Anyway, it's the way that Spelunky does it) is to take a bunch of hand-crafted fragments, add random variations, and stitch them together with random seams. Then again, perhaps you meant that any sort of level-gen overhaul is too difficult, in which case I'll just keep plugging away.

[Dacke]

which may be called Markov Chains?

No, that's something completely different
Edit: Or, well, it could be related. But it doesn't have to be.
Edit 2: To clarify. Piecing elements together to form a big level is not Markov Chaining. But it would be clever to use a Markov Chain to decide what the next part of the level should be.

[droqen]

I don't believe that an overhaul would be too difficult (... well, it sort of would be really difficult, but what I mean is it isn't the issue in this case).

But: I quite like the levels that P0 generates, if I may be honest, and I don't think its 100% random designs are something that I could create myself. It surprises me with every bit of landscape it generates, and it amazes me that something so truly random can still create an interesting challenge that is -- most of the time -- possible, given the right choices are made and the right buttons are pressed (at the right times, of course).

I'm not out to get you, of course! However I don't think I could do the current generator justice with something like that. Also, there isn't a terribly huge amount of room; I'd either be dependent on stitching together lots of really small areas (which would be difficult to do well, as if I made them too small there would be no point), or I'd be predefining very large areas (which would require me to make many, many, many areas for fear of repetition becoming obvious).

I have noticed the repeated patterns in Spelunky, and though in that game they don't bother me, I don't think that I'd want to do them in this game, but if I in the future make a game of the randomly-generated level variety I would deign to make it smarter through either this means or another.

---> oh also I'm lazy :D

[Ben Kuhn]

Okay, those all sound like good reasons. I'll suck it up.

And thanks, Dacke, for the clarification.

[mokesmoe]

I do agree that random is better than not random. Do what you can to control the randomness to make the levels better, but don't make them your self.

If for some reason, you do decide to use pre-generated segments, don't make them yourself, just copy good ones made by the current generator.