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[skaldicpoet9]

Didn't know quite where to put this...but this seems like a good place. Anyways, I really liked this:

10 principles for good design:

• Good design is innovative.
• Good design makes a product useful.
• Good design is aesthetic.
• Good design helps us to understand a product.
• Good design is unobtrusive.
• Good design is honest.
• Good design is durable.
• Good design is consequent to the last detail.
• Good design is concerned with the environment.
• Good design is as little design as possible.

Apparently these are by a guy named Dieter Rams who worked at Braun during the '60s. Here is the article that I found it in: 1960s Braun Products Hold the Secrets to Apple's Future. I really liked (ironically) the simplicity of these design principles. I don't know much about design admittedly but these just rang true for me.

[Zaphos]

10 principles for good design:

• Good design is innovative.
• Good design makes a product useful.
• Good design is aesthetic.
• Good design helps us to understand a product.
• Good design is unobtrusive.
• Good design is honest.
• Good design is durable.
• Good design is consequent to the last detail.
• Good design is concerned with the environment.
• Good design is as little design as possible.

This looks like it's intended for selling products; I don't think it fully applies to games.  Anyway here's a jpeg with explanations of the principles: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4b/Dieter_Rams_Design_Principles.jpg

[skaldicpoet9]

Yeah, I was trying to figure out where to place it. I think a few of these could be loosely applied to game design but mostly what I was thinking was in terms of gaming hardware. To me the Wii seems like a good example of this.

[skaldicpoet9]

Wow, this got stickied?

Does that mean I can do this?:

DISCUSS.

:D

[Derek]

Actually, my bad, skaldic!  I didn't mean to sticky it.  I just split the topic because it seemed like it deserved its own!  But since the parent was stickied... then I got distracted by other things.

Anyway.

Can still be DISCUSS'ed, of course.

[skaldicpoet9]

It's cool.

I was actually wondering why it was stickied lol.

[SplinterOfChaos]

I'd say the one about design being unobtrusive is moot for games. Sure there are still games out there where the designers want the main character to be a blank canvas that you, the user, paints, but most games try to convey a personality and I think are better for it.

[team_q]

I'd say the one about design being unobtrusive is moot for games. Sure there are still games out there where the designers want the main character to be a blank canvas that you, the user, paints, but most games try to convey a personality and I think are better for it.

I think I would've enjoyed Assassin's Creed alot more if I was just an Assassin taking odd Assassin jobs moving up the ranks and taking out more difficult targets. I mean they made the sandbox world then put up giant wooden barriers to force how they wanted you to play.

[SplinterOfChaos]

I think that's a little tangent. Most games, which are linear, I believe should have a personality. But yeah, there are sandbox games out there, and they tend to be neutral as possible and are better for it.

But, when you really look at it, there has never been a true sandbox game. It would dramatically decrease the target audience, but I really think we need a really good sandbox game out there. Like GTA with ABSOLUTELY NO STORY. If people don't have structure, they often feel insecure. They don't know how to make decisions because they feel they'll fukitol up. Having a personality helps them feel structured.

That's why games will always be obtrusive...or at least commercial games will. Only an indy company could get away with something like what I'm talking about.

[Zaphos]

I think that's a little tangent. Most games, which are linear, I believe should have a personality. But yeah, there are sandbox games out there, and they tend to be neutral as possible and are better for it.

But, when you really look at it, there has never been a true sandbox game. It would dramatically decrease the target audience, but I really think we need a really good sandbox game out there. Like GTA with ABSOLUTELY NO STORY. If people don't have structure, they often feel insecure. They don't know how to make decisions because they feel they'll fukitol up. Having a personality helps them feel structured.

That's why games will always be obtrusive...or at least commercial games will. Only an indy company could get away with something like what I'm talking about.

"Never" is a strong word ... games like SimCity and Eve Online (not that I've played Eve Online) and ... most of the Sim genre ... come to mind, and there have also been games with a story which is weak enough that it's not really different from any other optional quest or activity, like (I think) the original Escape Velocity or (less so) the Elder Scrolls series.  Meanwhile LittleBigPlanet is coming out soon-ish and is basically all about users creating their own experiences.  And Line Rider was hugely popular and will see commercial release in some form.  And I'm sure there are more examples floating about of relatively pure sandbox games ...

Either way though, I think it's clearly a design decision that depends on the project; there is no general "rule" that can be said about the amount of 'obtrusiveness' a game design should allow.

[SplinterOfChaos]

I can totally agree with your second paragraph.

I'd also like to exclude sims from the discussion. Why? Well, how much freedom really can you have in them? Even if most, or at least many, have sandbox modes where you don't have to worry about money, even if you're creative, you won't find much to do. Hey look! I made a railroad that goes in a circle in Railroad Tycoon!

And, I'll admit, Oblivion is very Sandbox, in fact, it's almost what I'm looking for...but a truly sandbox game is theoretically never-ending. A lot of players find there's nothing to do, even before finishing all the missions. But it is pretty cool how much fun you can make yourself. The AI could still get better (not that it seems like Bethesda thinks so), but there is a lot of depth in there.

Has anyone here played Crackdown? I've heard of it as being completely non-linear and having no real direction (but not like I remembered before blabbing on).

[Zaphos]

Oops, didn't realize you were only talking about commercial games -- sorry! 

Line Rider is going to have a commercial release on DS and Wii though.  A company bought the rights to it.  We'll have to wait and see what they do with it of course.

I think Crackdown does have an overall plot / winning condition, but it is very light and doesn't constrain the order in which you do things.

As to sims, I think people get a decent amount of freedom out of something like The Sims but I didn't play it much, so I am unsure.

[cmspice]

I think the indy movement is a counteraction against consumerism (and consequentially consumerist design).

[Chris Whitman]

I don't think there's much point in discussing the analogies between functional product design and game design. I think the relation between the two is pretty tenuous.

Sure, you can talk about how 'durability' is analogous to replay value, but keep in mind you are walking a very fine line on the other side of which are business seminars about how The Book of Five Rings is about techniques to increase your market share.

[fish]

DESIGN IS LAW

[Alec]

I remember when Romero said that. That sure worked out well for him.

[fish]

he fought the law and the law won.

[Chris Whitman]

I would argue that there were no winners.

[SplinterOfChaos]

Only dead?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

The problem with lists like this is that they don't tell you much and can't really improve someone's design -- it's just a set of vaguely positive words.

It's like saying that you think the unit of good design is the 'good thing' and a game's design is as good as the number of 'good things' in it.