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December 19, 2014, 09:29:50 AM
TIGSource ForumsFeedbackDevLogsFinishedPapers, Please [Available 8/8]
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johnki
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« Reply #180 on: February 03, 2013, 01:50:28 AM »

I was wondering if the warning should mention the exact mistake. I assumed it wouldn't help much since by the time you get the warning the entrant is gone and you can't check their papers anymore. But both you and Armageddon have mentioned it so I'll experiment.
Speaking from experience, in my last playthrough, I got 4 warnings on the first day. I had no idea what I did wrong. For the most part, on the first day, I thought I was supposed to approve pretty much everyone since I couldn't highlight discrepancies.

So, even if not exact, more info would be greatly appreciated.
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dukope
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« Reply #181 on: February 03, 2013, 02:06:34 AM »

Speaking from experience, in my last playthrough, I got 4 warnings on the first day. I had no idea what I did wrong. For the most part, on the first day, I thought I was supposed to approve pretty much everyone since I couldn't highlight discrepancies.
So, even if not exact, more info would be greatly appreciated.

Hehe ok that's good to know. This is a little scary though because the first bulletin states matter-of-factly that you should only permit Arstotzkan citizens to enter due to a security alert. Did you read the bulletin when playing?

In retrospect, people will probably miss important bulletin info no matter what so a detailed warning report seems necessary.
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DustyDrake
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« Reply #182 on: February 03, 2013, 02:10:54 AM »

Can you give me more info about this? The inspect mode should let you highlight any two pieces of information. Did you highlight two clearly discrepant pieces of info and it didn't show the Interrogate button?
Personally I think inspect mode should get thrown out all together, and you should be able to question the person 'directly'.
Because at the moment it isn't really clear.
I had a guy who said he came to work, his entry permit said travel, but he still lacked a work permit.
I would've shunted the guy out because he said he came to work, but lacked the work permit.

The way that worked for me in inspect mode, is that I highlighted the rule saying he lacked a work permit, and the table meaning he didn't have one, but it wouldn't give it to me.
In my idea, you'd click the rule about not having a work permit, and your character would ask them about it.
"Where is your work permit?"
"What? Oh, I come for travel. Apologies."
You could then check his entry permit to see if that's what it said.

I personally only use inspect mode to double check, or to compare dates. Beyond that, I don't touch it, since I'm already inspecting everything.
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johnki
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« Reply #183 on: February 03, 2013, 02:19:01 AM »

This is a little scary though because the first bulletin states matter-of-factly that you should only permit Arstotzkan citizens to enter due to a security alert. Did you read the bulletin when playing?
Not well enough, apparently!

I won't lie. I only scanned it the first time. Totally missed that part. That would probably be the problem.

With some other ones, though, I swear I checked everything except height. Would be nice to know if discrepant height is actually what I'm getting penalized for.

EDIT: Played again. Yep. That was the problem.

Got no discrepancies the first day then got slammed with 4 in a row the second day. Facepalm Really wondering what I missed though.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 03:13:17 AM by johnki » Logged

Eigen
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« Reply #184 on: February 03, 2013, 03:16:26 AM »

I played it for quite a while this morning and it was really awesome! Very nicely done. Hand Clap

There's a slight issue with the music. Sometimes it cuts off after the first beat with a weird glitchy sound. Next couple of times it may work just fine. This happens both during the intro and the "day over" screen.

Would there be any way to increase the size of the document inspection area just a tad bit? I know it's probably intentional but there's a lot workspace management just to get the document you want and it feels like an unneccesary action.

It can get a little repetive after playing for a while but I guess once the "day over" screen is fully implemented and you have to manage your earnings it would break the monotony a bit.

I'm definitely going to play it some more. This game made feel sorry for the actual immigration officers. Having to be this alert all of the time is really exhausting mentally ...
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Jobastion
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« Reply #185 on: February 03, 2013, 07:19:32 PM »

Can you give me more info about this? The inspect mode should let you highlight any two pieces of information. Did you highlight two clearly discrepant pieces of info and it didn't show the Interrogate button?
Personally I think inspect mode should get thrown out all together, and you should be able to question the person 'directly'.
Because at the moment it isn't really clear.
I had a guy who said he came to work, his entry permit said travel, but he still lacked a work permit.
I would've shunted the guy out because he said he came to work, but lacked the work permit.

The way that worked for me in inspect mode, is that I highlighted the rule saying he lacked a work permit, and the table meaning he didn't have one, but it wouldn't give it to me.
In my idea, you'd click the rule about not having a work permit, and your character would ask them about it.
"Where is your work permit?"
"What? Oh, I come for travel. Apologies."
You could then check his entry permit to see if that's what it said.

I personally only use inspect mode to double check, or to compare dates. Beyond that, I don't touch it, since I'm already inspecting everything.
For this situation, you'd pull the audio transcript, which is sorta hidden behind the microphone, then highlight the line where he says he came for work and the line on the entry  permit that says it is for travel, which will reveal the discrepancy.

Later on it may not be a bad idea to have a brief tutorial of the items that are available at the start of the game. (I missed the audio transcript the first time around)
"Rule book to right.  Regular updated.  Check each day.  Audio transcript is middle.  Keep track, many lies traitors tell to bring down Arstotzka.  Clock to left.  Time always short.  Coffee break lever at top.  No coffee breaks, do not use."
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dukope
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« Reply #186 on: February 03, 2013, 08:58:22 PM »

Got no discrepancies the first day then got slammed with 4 in a row the second day. Facepalm Really wondering what I missed though.

Ok. Thanks for trying it out again. Next build will list the mistake on the warning.

There's a slight issue with the music. Sometimes it cuts off after the first beat with a weird glitchy sound. Next couple of times it may work just fine. This happens both during the intro and the "day over" screen.

Damn. This was happening for me too but I thought (hoped really) it was just an issue with the VM. HaxeNME uses SDL_Mixer for audio and tbh it's a bit shit.

Quote
Would there be any way to increase the size of the document inspection area just a tad bit? I know it's probably intentional but there's a lot workspace management just to get the document you want and it feels like an unneccesary action.

If I bump up to 16:9, there'll be a lot more room for documents. Still pondering.

Quote
It can get a little repetive after playing for a while but I guess once the "day over" screen is fully implemented and you have to manage your earnings it would break the monotony a bit.

The current build is still a little barren. I'm hoping to have enough story events (plus night mode and sniping) to keep things interesting for a while.

I personally only use inspect mode to double check, or to compare dates. Beyond that, I don't touch it, since I'm already inspecting everything.

I can see where you're coming from but the inspect mechanic is pretty set. The game needs this separate mode for the player to express their intent clearly. The fact that all errors are due to correlation (2 pieces of the same info don't match) gives a clear structure that I think is important. If you can just click on what you think is an error, there's nothing stopping you from just clicking on each piece of info in turn and waiting for the dialog to pop up. With the inspection you have to show you understand each error.

For this situation, you'd pull the audio transcript, which is sorta hidden behind the microphone, then highlight the line where he says he came for work and the line on the entry  permit that says it is for travel, which will reveal the discrepancy.

Yeah this is the way I intended it to work. But actually DustyDrake's method should've also worked. One of my goals is to have all the logical correlations work for any given error. So if they say they're coming for work, you should be able to point out a missing work pass and get them to correct their response. I'll try to get this implemented for the next build.

I'm glad to be posting these alphas as public b/c I can easily miss "logical" correlations like this.

Quote
Later on it may not be a bad idea to have a brief tutorial of the items that are available at the start of the game. (I missed the audio transcript the first time around)
"Rule book to right.  Regular updated.  Check each day.  Audio transcript is middle.  Keep track, many lies traitors tell to bring down Arstotzka.  Clock to left.  Time always short.  Coffee break lever at top.  No coffee breaks, do not use."

Good idea and brilliant text. Especially the coffee break lever is perfect. Wish I thought of it! Do you mind if I use it? Maybe I'll even issue a warning if you flip the lever.
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epcc
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« Reply #187 on: February 03, 2013, 09:25:36 PM »


I was wondering if the warning should mention the exact mistake. I assumed it wouldn't help much since by the time you get the warning the entrant is gone and you can't check their papers anymore. But both you and Armageddon have mentioned it so I'll experiment.

Quote
Another problem was that when sometimes there was multiple disparencies, it only let me highlight one of them.

Can you give me more info about this? The inspect mode should let you highlight any two pieces of information. Did you highlight two clearly discrepant pieces of info and it didn't show the Interrogate button?
What I meant was that it let me highlight it, but said matching data, altough it broke the rules. If I remember correctly, it was someone who tried to work, but had no work permit and maybe his entry permit had no valid seal.
Playing again, I couldn't find it, but found another bug. It seems that when you get someone whose fingerprints aren't matching, there's a detain button, but it didn't work.
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Armageddon
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« Reply #188 on: February 03, 2013, 10:54:14 PM »

I agree that there should be something between things, money management is good, but also you could do something like Hotline Miami and start out in your apartment or something and walk to work.
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Jobastion
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« Reply #189 on: February 04, 2013, 04:57:58 PM »

Later on it may not be a bad idea to have a brief tutorial of the items that are available at the start of the game. (I missed the audio transcript the first time around)
"Rule book to right.  Regular updated.  Check each day.  Audio transcript is middle.  Keep track, many lies traitors tell to bring down Arstotzka.  Clock to left.  Time always short.  Coffee break lever at top.  No coffee breaks, do not use."

Good idea and brilliant text. Especially the coffee break lever is perfect. Wish I thought of it! Do you mind if I use it? Maybe I'll even issue a warning if you flip the lever.
I'm glad you like it, you may use it as you please.
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dukope
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« Reply #190 on: February 05, 2013, 05:07:25 PM »

John Polson at Indiegames.com posted an article about Papers Please!



Awesome!  Grin
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Slushy_
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« Reply #191 on: February 05, 2013, 08:51:58 PM »

I hope you don't mind I uploaded a video to my channel , it seems to be popular in the reddit/r/indiegaming community so far.  Beer!  (Despite me being terrible at it )

http://www.reddit.com/r/IndieGaming/comments/17ym9q/papers_please_alpha_gameplay/
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I make Indie Game preview vids  Smiley
dukope
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« Reply #192 on: February 05, 2013, 09:08:44 PM »

I hope you don't mind I uploaded a video to my channel , it seems to be popular in the reddit/r/indiegaming community so far.  Beer!  (Despite me being terrible at it )
http://www.reddit.com/r/IndieGaming/comments/17ym9q/papers_please_alpha_gameplay/

Haha, great video. Thanks Slushy! Clearly, I gotta make the game easier to play at the start.
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IAmSerge
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« Reply #193 on: February 05, 2013, 11:22:34 PM »

Hi, I'm Serge; just registered.

Anyways, just wanted to say I really enjoyed the game so far!
Very impressed!  Anywhere I can just... get the one theme song for it somewhere? XD

Also, just read that you have a custom built C++ engine hanging around; I'm working on one myself, at the moment.  May I ask what it all supports and has, built into the engine?  Just curious to see where you took it!
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sk2k
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« Reply #194 on: February 05, 2013, 11:54:36 PM »

I really like the art style. It looks soo AMIGA'ish. Smiley
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Eigen
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« Reply #195 on: February 06, 2013, 12:25:04 AM »

My gf saw me play this and wanted to try it out too. I gave her a couple of pointers on how to play and she blasted trough the demo quite easily. She's not a gamer at all but she said she liked it. Here's some feedback from her:

* The game is too easy. There should be smaller errors like only one character different in document numbers or only the first or last name being different so you would need to pay more attention.
* Not enough room to move papers around (I might've given her that idea, sorry)
* Seals - instead of just missing/being there there should be seals that look similar on first glance but aren't really

So, I'm thinking some sort of difficulty level maybe?


I'm not sure if that's really an issue but I noticed this:
Some foreign guy said he would stay for 1 year and his documents were all valid but his passport would expire before 1 year. Something like 7 months from now I think. Not sure how he would ever leave the country?
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Baobab
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« Reply #196 on: February 06, 2013, 12:32:28 AM »

Wow, I really love how tactile everything feels! I would love to be able to click and drag the stamp down to stamp it myself. And maybe have it leave a faded mark from pressing it too slow; a normal mark for just right; and a bleeding dark stamp from too fast. If that's too much, then just being able to push the stamp down myself, with a nice SHUNK noise would still be awesome!

Love the game!
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wmcduff
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« Reply #197 on: February 06, 2013, 12:52:54 AM »

Quote
* The game is too easy. There should be smaller errors like only one character different in document numbers or only the first or last name being different so you would need to pay more attention.

Really?  I messed up one because the passport was issued in a city that didn't issue passports.  I registered to say that it should probably ramp up a little slower so the player could memorize the book parts at a time.  Start off only dealing with the locals, then add foreigners as other booths closed, stuff like that.

Actually, that sort of work thematically, doesn't it?  Fearless leader visits the border posts, so they quickly hire more men and make everything clean and shiny...and then as he loses focus on it, they fire people (giving you a bar to stay above) but require the same amount of work to be done by the remaining people.  So on the first day you're just stamping pre-approved citizens, then making sure they have their ID cards, then multiple issuing cities, the multiple districts, then foreigners from one country passing through...

Just slowly ramp up the pressure and numbers. Smiley
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corpocracy
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« Reply #198 on: February 06, 2013, 12:56:06 AM »

Just finished the alpha/demo and loved it! I can't wait to see some more intricate decision making (right now when I find a discrepancy I just deny them).

I also had some ideas and notes about the game. I was wondering if there might be a faster way to ask someone for missing papers. Currently it's kind of a chore to look up the rule (especially if more rules keep getting added to the book). I was wondering if maybe you could just point to the transcript and the empty table? Or maybe just click on the microphone to bring up a dialogue box/tree where you could ask them for the papers.

I know the point is to make sure the player knows that there is a discrepancy, but as I said, it can get kind of cumbersome. Adding a dialogue option would have a few bonuses:
1. If you ask for more paperwork and they gave you the appropriate materials in the first place, they might immediately become irate at your incompetence (thus an incentive to not spam this option, especially if you plan on some people having guns that could threaten you)
2. You could ask for a bribe (something else you mentioned earlier, but instead of leaving them to offer, you could just straight up ask them for one even if their paperwork checks out. This could lead to you getting caught and possibly having to bribe your boss or something to keep your job. Maybe that's too complicated, but just a thought).
3. Say something reassuring/inflammatory. This might have minimal affect on the actual gameplay, but could go a long way in helping you personalize your role. There were a lot of people I denied that I felt miserable about, but I just couldn't let them through because their paperwork was just so shoddy. Saying something nice or mean in return could help me cope with these decisions. What could also be nice is that this could affect the mood/response of the person who you are talking to. And the response/mood could be a random change! Working in customer service, I've often seen people FLIP OUT over trivial details even though I tried to be nice to them. In this game I could easily see myself being nice, have the person go crazy, and then letting go of any sympathy for them as I close the shutters and have the guards drag the person away...


One more suggestion I was thinking about that I think would tie in great to your Republia game (which I also loved). You mentioned getting mail and notices before each day. I think something that would be perfect here would be a simple newspaper with headlines (just like Republia). What would be great is that most of these stories could just be background filler about the world (Argotza is the greatest nation! Republia devils side with out enemies!) but also puts the player in an odd spot. If this is our only information to the outside world, what do we believe? Are the Republians really terrible people? And when we see Republia on their passport, how does this make us feel? Do we give them a harder time? Ask for more documents than usual?

And something to tie into that last idea (I swear, last idea Wink ) is maybe making the people in line have a stronger tie to whatever their home country is. I noticed some passports look different than others, but maybe this difference should be more marked. And it might not be a bad idea to assign a color or a palette of colors to the Visa, and maybe even to the clothes of the entrants that correspond to each country. That way, when somebody walks up to the window you might have a gut reaction that the person in front of you is Republian or Argotzan, even if their paperwork says otherwise (again, this is another case where you might start to build a prejudice towards a certain group and you might start scrutinizing their paperwork more). For example, lets say a country has a red palette and all or most of the immigrants from that country use that palette. Just yesterday, someone from that country suicide bombed the line because they had valid (or possibly forged) paperwork and you let them by. Now you are forced to see people with that same color palette every day and you suddenly have a negative reaction to them without knowing why...


Anyways, just my thoughts. I love this game and can't wait to see its completion!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 01:07:58 AM by corpocracy » Logged
dukope
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« Reply #199 on: February 06, 2013, 02:21:15 AM »

@ IAmSerge
Thank you. You can grab the theme song from "assets/music/Theme.mp3" in the windows zip, or rip it from youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBQE_TNI7zw . The C++ engine is a collection of stuff I've built on and developed over the last 10 years or so. It sits atop SDL for multi-plat support and has the usual OpenGL engine features like scenes, audio, ui, etc. I like it a lot, but I think my days of maintaing custom engines are over so I chose Haxe/NME for this project.

@ sk2k
Old computers are the best computers.

@ Eigen
Thanks for having your girl check it out. A perspective like that is really helpful. The difficulty will scale up beyond the first few days but I'm definitely worried about getting that scaling right. One person's interminably slow is another's blinding fast. Maybe a difficulty setting is best. The game currently has the partial name errors she suggested, but not partial id number errors. I'll change it so only single digits can be off later on. Ditto with the seals. There's a library of slightly-off seals that come up randomly. When the game gets longer there'll be more chances to see these. About the passport expiration. Not sure what to do about that. I'll either not bring it up, or programmatically ensure that all passport expirations extend beyond the stay.

@ Baobab
Hehe. I think manually dragging the stamp down at the right speed would be cool at first and annoying later. I'm currently adding sound effects to the game, including a satisfying "THUNK" for the stamp, so hopefully you'll like the feel better.

@ wmcduff
My big fear is that ramping up too slowly results in players losing interest. Helsing's Fire had this problem and I still kinda regret the shallow difficulty curve there. For this game, I'm now hoping that by pointing out the specific errors on the warning slips, players can get up to speed faster.

@ corpocracy
Wow thank you for the long comments. About dialog trees, I'm sorry to say that I probably won't go there. From a development perspective, I don't like to write much dialog. And from a gamer perspective, I don't like to read much dialog. I think the game works better by making the motions more mechanical and less like a traditional dialog tree. At least it enhances the bureaucratic feel for me. I do like the idea about requesting a bribe though. I could fit that in with a drop-down button like the fingerprinting. The idea about the newspapers is also a good one. I've kinda rolled that idea around in my head for awhile. The newspaper headlines format is a great way to update the player without much reading. And finally, you're right about the passports. I'll definitely make them more varied since one of the main things people miss is the entrant's nationality. Not sure about color-coding their clothes but that's not outside consideration. Smiley


Thanks everybody for the comments and suggestions.
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