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[Squidly]

Hey guys, I dunno if we're allowed to talk about the elephant in the room right now, but I just want to say:

I think TIGSource is definitely the most honest, considerate, game developer space on the internet.

Yea a few bad apples got their start here, but generally speaking, all conversation has been constructive.

It's just I see way too much of this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwTDFc1CMAIKFqM.png

and it's awfully poisonous.

I just hate to see what has happened recently. I won't comment about Zoe Quinn and her whatever, but the response from BOTH sides has just been awful. The fact that only one side has been called out (the 'misogynist' crowd of people denouncing her/others) is just... bad.

It's all hate. We can't play the blame game. SOMETHING happened recently, and the fact that now people are saying 'gamers are dead' is just... I don't know what to say about that.

So again, thank you TIG-ers (are we allowed to use that one) for keeping it cool and contained. I don't see any trolling, just opposing sides working out their views in (SOMETIMES not so) considerate ways.

Definitely a far cry from what we've seen, and it really is something remarkable.

[Schoq]

Mainly because of these huge angry threads we have once in a while where the SJ side leaves out of dejection and frustration and the MRA side gets banned so we're left with only boring moderates like the rest of us.

[Boreal]

I disagree.  The Anita thread is very one-sided.  I'm getting insulted just for disagreeing and presenting my own facts and opinions.

[BarchKing]

Paul & Derek saved that thread, It was quite refreshing to see a actual discussion without leading to a name calling in the later part of the thread

[HyperThermal]

I honestly can't believe that there's this whole movement amongst games journalists based on harassing and insulting their own userbase. Who are they trying to appeal to with this?

[Sik]

I disagree.  The Anita thread is very one-sided.  I'm getting insulted just for disagreeing and presenting my own facts and opinions.

Do you even know what a true flamewar actually looks like?

[Schoq]

Lots of people over the past decade or so have stopped calling themselves gamers because they want no association with the kind of people most keen on self-describing as such. It's not a recent thing at all.

[Tuba]

This whole thing was blown way out of proportions. Alexander's article is a little extreme but I think it has a good point.

This whole shitstorm is happening because some "gamers" take video games a little too serious. You see people talking about "gamer pride" and shouting proudly that games are the most important thing in their lives and that's poisonous. Those are the people that fight over consoles and tweet to Kamiya that he should die because Bayonetta 2 is a WiiU exclusive. This shit needs to stop.

[s0]

Lots of people over the past decade or so have stopped calling themselves gamers because they want no association with the kind of people most keen on self-describing as such. It's not a recent thing at all.

ya i stopped calling myself a "gamer" years ago. i obv like videogames as entertainment/art/cultural products/watever but "gaming" as a "lifestyle" sucks.

Alexander's article is a little extreme but I think it has a good point.

i'd say her analysis of what "gamer culture" on the internet is is pretty spot on

[Nillo]

It's been an interesting week, to say the least. A lot of voices being raised in favor and opposition to various views. And the funny thing is, when there are so many voices wanting to be heard, it's easy to find one that sounds really stupid. If you want to rationalize the opinion that you've already decided to have, all you need to do is find the most stupid voices on the other side and smirk at your evident intellectual superiority over them.

The people I admire the most are not the ones who firmly stick to one opinion, but the ones who are open to change their view in the event that new facts come to light. Like the feminist with the pen name Ariel Connor, who made a long post on Twitter explaining a number of mistakes she had made and admitting that the situation is a lot more complicated than she first assumed it to be. It's a shame that she has to do this on an alternate account to avoid backlash, but that says more about the state of feminism than it does about her.

As for TIGSource, it is a pretty nice place. I like it here. It can get heated when social issues like this one come up, but on regular non-drama days I think it's a great forum for general game chats.

[pottering]

I honestly can't believe that there's this whole movement amongst games journalists based on harassing and insulting their own userbase. Who are they trying to appeal to with this?

that was obviously SELF-criticism, those journos are all gamers too (in fact they tied their careers to gaming)

[Tuba]

i'd say her analysis of what "gamer culture" on the internet is is pretty spot on

Only trouble is that these last two weeks have proven her completely wrong.

Why?

I've seen things these last two weeks I thought I'd never see.

I saw /v/, /pol/, and Reddit unite in the world's most unholy alliance (trust me, these people HATE eachother)

...to raise 17000 for a feminist charity

...and design a blatantly unsexualized character that represents the 'average gamer' which people just don't seem to understand could exist.

...and I've never seen them as more human. These are living, breathing, people with emotions, wants, likes, dislikes, and none of them really seem to strike me as misogynist

Proof? The 4chan thread used to be called Quinnspiracy. It's now officially been re-titled to 'GamerGate'

I saw hordes of 'anime characters and eggs' favoriting my feminist tweets.

Meanwhile I just watched a really, really, hard to watch video where a twitter/youtuber had to close her account because 'feminists' had found her phone number, telling her that she's 'a slut who should go hang herself.'

Meanwhile we have Leigh Alexander saying things such as "Virgin Basement Dwelling Man Babies" and Quinn's supporters remarking "You're a Cis Male, how would you know" (disclaimer: I'm a racial minority, I know how much it sucks to be oppressed) but they DON'T hold the moral high ground here.

I mean, really, we need to talk about this, this isn't misogyny, the hate ball's been thrown far into the Quinn camp, to the point where journalists are holding mock 'panels' at PAX making fun of the conspiracy

In their head, it's tin hat, they really wish it was tin hat, but really all misogynists they want is this:

What I'm getting here is this:

- Zoe Quinn was exposed and 4chan and reddit and the whole "MRA" (hate using that but for a lack of better terms let's go with it) freaked out and started to yell about conspiracies and to harass everyone that was on her side

- Journos and (some) devs, the so called "SJW" didn't take it seriously because of how ridiculous the MRA complaints are

- Now the MRA wants to be taken serious and it's trying to focus on journalism problems, but the SJW don't care because the MRA already blew it, so fuck it.

At least we're going somewhere.. I think. I'm seeing some people like [ulr=http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s71k8k]Jason Schreier[/url] rethinking about games journalism, Alexander's article also talks a little about how games journalism should be. Thinking harder about your job is always good. The thing is, most of the "problems" I'm seeing people complain about are really silly and paranoiac.

Believe me, I have my own gaming blog where I write news, reviews and all that and everyday I talk to journalists, developers and PR people from big publishers. Of course there is some corruption, that will always exist in any area of anything. But it's not nearly as big as people are making it. Being friends with a dev or helping a patreon doesn't make a jorunalist corrupt, most journos I know, know how to keep the two things separated. In fact, this whole thing is built on the premise that Zoe Quinn had sex with a guy for a good review and that review doesn't exist.

[Praying Mantis]

I find it weird that people are trying to make it a social justice/men's rights/women's rights issue, and interject their opinions on those matters into the discussion. It really has very little to do with Quinn, her game or sexism. It's a matter of journalistic integrity; gender rights don't come into play.

That's the reason why I've mostly been avoiding the debate, not many people seem to be talking about the real issue, and when they do they can't help but discuss the 'Quinnspiracy Theory' too.

[BarchKing]

@prayingmantis
Thats why its so hard to talk about this, once you start labeling each other you devalue the ideas presented you know become a human being but a label and whatever you do just plays into it. there are so many themes here that its hard to see a coherent dialogue between two people before the talk gets either raged quit or closed. which is a shame really - I always believe in if you sit down with someone and talk about it, you can leave with a perspective that was even better then the one you started with. I know paul eres is made fun of sometimes but I believe he has that perspective which is something I really admire

[Tuba]

The discussion is being handled pretty well here and in the Tropes VS Women thread (btw maybe both should be merged).

[Udderdude]

Re: The whole gamer thing .. "Gamer" as a term has been dead for years now.  Gaming has gone mainstream long ago .. everyone plays games.  Even your grandma.  It's no longer a niche, the term is obselete.

The only term that still makes some sense is hardcore gamer, just like someone who reads a lot of books is a bookworm and someone who watches a lot of movies and knows the names of famous directors is a movie buff, etc ..

I still don't like the term hardcore gamer because it implies you're SUPER SERIAL about them rather than just really into games, though.  Dedicated gamer maybe?

[BarchKing]

Another variation is gaymer which is a subgroup catorgory of LGBT which is still very active.

[s0]

- Now the MRA wants to be taken serious and it's trying to focus on journalism problems, but the SJW don't care because the MRA already blew it, so fuck it.

i think it's important to talk about the problems of game journalism, not least b/c imo mainstream game journalism is partly to blame for the way "gamer culture" has evolved. BUT: the most vocal "critics" of game journalism atm have ulterior motives that i can't agree with AND they're targeting a small handful of journos that actually try to do something different from the norm.

[Tuba]

Another good text about this whole mess: http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/01/the-gamer-is-dead-long-live-the-gamer/

[MeshGearFox]