next »

[PixelJunkie]

no one itt called the devs racist btw 

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=48861.msg1154592#msg1154592

[Faust06]

no one itt called the devs racist btw 

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=48861.msg1154592#msg1154592

Lol. You really think they're being signaled out there? He's saying everyone's subconsciously racist.

[PixelJunkie]

no one itt called the devs racist btw  

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=48861.msg1154592#msg1154592

Lol. You really think they're being signaled out there? He's saying everyone's subconsciously racist.

Calling developers inherently racist to certain degrees also includes these developers My point anyway is a game is a thing and a thing doesn't have feelings, so if someone feels the thing has racist feelings then it falls back onto the creators. I never meant people in this thread were calling out the developers of this game as racist, anyway. I meant the internet in general.

[JWK5]

When it is finished I can't wait to read the reviews. It will be interesting to see which aggressively demonize it in an attempt to pander to the SJW crowd, which overlook it's racist undertones altogether and focus solely on its gameplay, etc.

I think no matter what reviewer says what about it there will inevitably be a complete shitstorm in the comments section of the review. I do like the animation qualities of the game (i.e. the fluidity of the movement and the slapstick nature) and it looks like it might be a fun bit of action gaming, but by far the game's most interesting quality is the questions and discussions it presents to the gaming community as a whole.

Despite whatever ignorance it might potentially draw out of the community, I think it puts some healthy much needed discussions on the table.

[PixelJunkie]

Despite whatever ignorance it might potentially draw out of the community, I think it puts some healthy much needed discussions on the table.

I really don't. I would like to see someone who is genuinely offended by the game, because what I typically see from the SJW crowd when it comes to these kind of things are a strange majority of people who are not even of the sexual orientation or ethnic group they claim something is offensive against. If accusations against this game really do arise, I guarantee you 95% of the people who speak against it either A. Won't watch a video of the game, or B. Actually play it. In my eyes, it's similar to the people who think everything is a conspiracy. And believe it or not, there's a lot of people who are in a sexual orientation or ethnic minority that become very annoyed when others try to speak for them, especially when they aren't even part of their sexual orientation or ethnic minority.

And this is why I'm worried about that game, because it'll take only one prominent youtuber to summon their entourage of SJW's and destroy the lives of the developers. Don't believe me? Google about the Civil War game purge on the Apple Store, or Hatred being banned from steam for no good reason. The fact of the matter is, the companies with these distribution platforms Don't care about independent developers. They've become a dime a dozen, and from a business standpoint, it's not worth their time and money to defend them. So whether the game is "racist" or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is if a large enough group of people just follow the bandwagon in labeling it racist, or sexist, or whatever.

[JWK5]

You don't necessarily have to be offended by the game to discuss its composition and subject matter and it is not like anyone is saying (as far as I know) that the entirety of the game is one big racist tribute or something. What is mostly discussed is the original racist tropes that some of the in-game assets are mimicking and what effects or implication that might have.

Yes, there are people who will overreact and take things to an extreme, but those types of people are certainly not limited to the SJW crowd and can pretty much be found anywhere anyone raises issue with just about anything. It's unfortunate, but hiding from that reality isn't going to dissipate any given issue it will only cause it them to build up below the surface and erupt much more aggressively down the line.

My personal standpoint with the game is that I am not offended by the stereotypes mimicked in Cuphead but that doesn't mean I think they are a good choice for what the game is trying to achieve. They are marring the more slapstick fun nature of the game with tropes that conjure up the cruelty of the past. The majority of the game looks good, they just need to work out a few of the blemishes.

[Elsaess]

It's true that there is such a thing as 'speaking for the subaltern', whereby a non-minority speaks for the minority.
In this case, I think this is well-meaning and in defense of the subaltern. It's problematic, though, yes.

It's also true that most minorities (if not all) seek out allies, and would like people who are not a member of the minority to stand alongside them. See Emma Watson's speech on men becoming feminists. If these things become tribal and exclude non-minority members, then no progress is being made.

It would be worth seeking out opinions from the minority in question.

I think the gaming community needs to retire the term 'SJW'. It's juvenile, and it's gaming's equivalent of "It's political correctness gone mad!" Meaning: There are people who are trying to make the world a better and more inclusive place, and they're being shouted down by a pack of children. What would be better would be if we took this opportunity to discuss, improve, and work towards a better future.

[PixelJunkie]

It's true that there is such a thing as 'speaking for the subaltern', whereby a non-minority speaks for the minority.
In this case, I think this is well-meaning and in defense of the subaltern. It's problematic, though, yes.

It's also true that most minorities (if not all) seek out allies, and would like people who are not a member of the minority to stand alongside them. See Emma Watson's speech on men becoming feminists. If these things become tribal and exclude non-minority members, then no progress is being made.

It would be worth seeking out opinions from the minority in question.

I think the gaming community needs to retire the term 'SJW'. It's juvenile, and it's gaming's equivalent of "It's political correctness gone mad!" Meaning: There are people who are trying to make the world a better and more inclusive place, and they're being shouted down by a pack of children. What would be better would be if we took this opportunity to discuss, improve, and work towards a better future.

There's a very big difference between one group of people trying to change something and one group of people trying to get an entire ethnicity and/or gender of people to apologize for being their ethnicity and/or gender, even if it's their own ethnicity/gender. And the latter has become much, much more common. There can't be tolerance if the people yelling for tolerance are being absolutely intolerant of any opinion other than their own. Telling someone the only reason they ever accomplished anything is because of their ethnicity or gender is pretty hateful and doesn't get us anywhere. It's not okay to do that. Trying to force change too fast just makes it slower, since people will push back.

[Nillo]

I think the gaming community needs to retire the term 'SJW'. It's juvenile, and it's gaming's equivalent of "It's political correctness gone mad!" Meaning: There are people who are trying to make the world a better and more inclusive place, and they're being shouted down by a pack of children. What would be better would be if we took this opportunity to discuss, improve, and work towards a better future.

Two sides of the coin, here. Calling someone an SJW is certainly vicious, but so is calling them a racist or a Neo Nazi just for voicing an idea that deviates from the canon. If we're to have a debate on important issues and get anywhere with it, then the namecalling has to go.

[s0]

It's true that there is such a thing as 'speaking for the subaltern', whereby a non-minority speaks for the minority.
In this case, I think this is well-meaning and in defense of the subaltern. It's problematic, though, yes.

welp in this case, the article that kicked off the controversy was written by a black person so yea.

[Elsaess]

It's true that there is such a thing as 'speaking for the subaltern', whereby a non-minority speaks for the minority.
In this case, I think this is well-meaning and in defense of the subaltern. It's problematic, though, yes.

welp in this case, the article that kicked off the controversy was written by a black person so yea.

You're right! I'd forgotten. I'm embarrassed.

PixelJunkie, I agree with you. The intensity of internet debate and public shaming can be incredibly harmful. I don't really know how that can be toned down. The points are often technically correct, but the degree of intensity and the effect they have can be inappropriate. It's a difficult one.

Nillo, precisely. I don't think anyone should be called a Neo-Nazi, or an SJW. What's important is balanced debate of the topic at hand. We can all weigh in and be respectful of each other.

[PixelJunkie]

It's true that there is such a thing as 'speaking for the subaltern', whereby a non-minority speaks for the minority.
In this case, I think this is well-meaning and in defense of the subaltern. It's problematic, though, yes.

welp in this case, the article that kicked off the controversy was written by a black person so yea.

You're right! I'd forgotten. I'm embarrassed.

PixelJunkie, I agree with you. The intensity of internet debate and public shaming can be incredibly harmful. I don't really know how that can be toned down. The points are often technically correct, but the degree of intensity and the effect they have can be inappropriate. It's a difficult one.

Nillo, precisely. I don't think anyone should be called a Neo-Nazi, or an SJW. What's important is balanced debate of the topic at hand. We can all weigh in and be respectful of each other.

The difference between a social activist and a SJW is that the social activist will try to explain something to you, while a SJW will make it their life mission to destroy you. I don't really see how the term SJW is offensive to you when it's explicitly used to describe someone who completely overreacts to things.

[Elsaess]

I think the problem is that we're all nerds, and all nerds think they're always right. Hence gaming's intensity. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of 'SJW' type people just don't realise how they're coming across. It's a real skill to be able to gently explain something to people.

Dan Harmon said something about this phenomenon recently on his podcast. With regard to the Lena Dunham controversy, he said "You have to think before you tweet something condemning someone: 'Am I personally risking something by saying this?' Because if you're not, it's not brave." I think it's very easy to get caught up in the 'crusade' feeling of debate.

This is off-topic, anyway. Cuphead is drawing on problematic imagery and contexts. Discuss.

[Nillo]

That's a healthy way to look at it, Elsaess. When we discuss things online, it's easy to forget there's another human on the other side of the fence, and so we often use language we would never say to someone in real life. I think that's something we all need to keep in mind when speaking about topics that are likely to provoke intense feelings.

[s0]

The difference between a social activist and a SJW is that the social activist will try to explain something to you, while a SJW will make it their life mission to destroy you. I don't really see how the term SJW is offensive to you when it's explicitly used to describe someone who completely overreacts to things.

i know you deleted your account and stuff but ive seen more than enough people use the term "sjw" as a generic insult against politically left leaning people who care about race, gender or sexuality issues. the only times ive ever seen the sjw/sja distinction brought up is in discussions about the validity of the term like this one. outside of that, people use it pretty indiscriminately.

also when self proclaimed "core gamers" call the inclusion of non-straight relationships or people of color in games "sjw pandering", what the hell am i supposed to think?

[Faust06]

Cuphead is drawing on problematic imagery and contexts. Discuss. Concerned

What do you mean by contexts?

It would follow, then, that an entire medium of art and animation is problematic because it was used inappropriately in some instances. Nobody seems to have this sentiment about Merry Melodies (yet). B&W films created to simulate an antiquated experience dated from a time when insensitive material was regularly broadcast would be equally guilty (i.e. movies like the Artist). Must art (forms, not specific ideas and expressions) remain unmimicked and buried in the past because the past from which they date was racist?

Tricky thing maybe is that those recognizable character designs are a huge part of what defines traditional animation. So that can't be divorced from the results. But they seem innocent to me.

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

It would follow, then, that an entire medium of art and animation is problematic because it was used inappropriately in some instances.

Yes, it would follow. And it .... is? ? ?

Vilifying something for being problematic is silly, pretending something doesnt have a problematic history stifles your understanding of it and ability to engage with it, critique it, learn from it, etc.

[Dacke]

Exactly.

We need to have continuous discussions to keep figuring out where to draw the lines.

[airman4]

It's true that there is such a thing as 'speaking for the subaltern', whereby a non-minority speaks for the minority.
In this case, I think this is well-meaning and in defense of the subaltern. It's problematic, though, yes.

It's also true that most minorities (if not all) seek out allies, and would like people who are not a member of the minority to stand alongside them. See Emma Watson's speech on men becoming feminists. If these things become tribal and exclude non-minority members, then no progress is being made.

It would be worth seeking out opinions from the minority in question.

I think the gaming community needs to retire the term 'SJW'. It's juvenile, and it's gaming's equivalent of "It's political correctness gone mad!" Meaning: There are people who are trying to make the world a better and more inclusive place, and they're being shouted down by a pack of children. What would be better would be if we took this opportunity to discuss, improve, and work towards a better future.

Minorities doesnt exists anyway
It's just a fantasy in a far far away galaxy ...

[gimymblert]

I like pixel junkie's logic

1) some people are talking for "minorities" and not let them talk, the "sjw"
2) sjw want to erase an ethnicity

if 1 is true then 2 can't be minorities, since POC, lgbtquia and women are considered minorities, the only option left is the cis straight white guys are sjw and are trying to erase destroy their own gender?