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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralFight Thread Pollution! Post here if it's not worth a new thread!!!
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Author Topic: Fight Thread Pollution! Post here if it's not worth a new thread!!!  (Read 2327177 times)
gimymblert
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« Reply #20100 on: March 04, 2015, 09:50:17 AM »

also unity 5 is free, like free no limit no constrain, no nothing it's pro but free Shocked

Nooope.

They've decided to crack down on not enough Pro licences being bought. You can't share any assets between a Pro copy or a Personal copy.

For a solo indie this is fine. But if that solo indie wants to do some freelance for a bigger company then they can't. Unity 5 marks assets as made with Personal or Pro - you can't mix the two.

Read the licence agreement sheeple!  Hand Shake Left Huh? Hand Shake Right

Yes I know, but I'm from the perspective of free poor indie Wink
Plus if the pipeline is anything like the old, it mark asset specific to unity yes (aka imported in the editor), I'm sure anybody thought the same as me as you can write you own non unity "scene", I mean that texture, code file, sound, most of these can be exported without marking (or kept unimported) with exporting extra metadata for import in unity to return them to their settings. Worse are "in unity asset" like mecanim but even ten I think there is option to analyse and export them into a custom file to reconstruct them in another version. With a programmer we were analyzing how to do it to virtualize our webplayer game for unity 3.x at one time, to get around the asset resource streaming limitation, basically we create our own scene desciption and file format by converting object to *.json, reading data from unity back and forth to export, import. It can be done again.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #20101 on: March 04, 2015, 09:53:20 AM »

Too little skill, but too many engines... -> broken games

That's a myth, there were more broken game before (cheetah men two) and in house engine + skill don't prevent it (AAA games 2014, ass creed being prime example)
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« Reply #20102 on: March 04, 2015, 10:52:28 AM »

AAA games just confirm that; 100+ people working on something and one hand doesn't perfectly know what the other is doing.

Perfection in a big team can only be achieved when everyone is working on orthogonal elements. For example you cannot completely dedicate one team-member to program character-interaction and the other program the physics-engine. Of course you can do that but you cannot expect the things to work perfectly. Those things are not orthogonal to each other, character-interaction and physics-engine tightly interact with each other. Thus one and the same person has to have the complete knowledge on how the physics engine works in order to implement perfectly working controls for character interaction.

A myth is actually what marketing is trying to create: "With the supa dupa engine everyone can now make his own dream game". A fool with a tool is still a fool.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #20103 on: March 04, 2015, 11:03:28 AM »

Except You can't do that if you have any idea how movement are handled in AAA with there 3000+ animation and ai to handle the blending between anim and the monstrous cases of gameplay situation in isolation (let's not talk about combination)
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« Reply #20104 on: March 04, 2015, 02:02:52 PM »

X game is awful because it does this, this, and that-- but Y game is not awful because it does this, this, and that because it shouldn't have to.

There's no sound rationale in assessing video games, just skewed opinions.
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« Reply #20105 on: March 04, 2015, 03:39:45 PM »

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/bank_of_canada_urges_star_trek_fans_to_stop_spocking_their_fivers
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« Reply #20106 on: March 04, 2015, 04:00:03 PM »

Except You can't do that
I can. AAA devs cannot.
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« Reply #20107 on: March 04, 2015, 04:11:27 PM »

I was pretty excited about upgrading from Unity4 to 5 but then this is what it did to my animation state machines...

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« Reply #20108 on: March 04, 2015, 04:33:38 PM »

I think game studios take too much pride in being "bigger than movies" now. There's been this grandiose creep in game studios where the most important thing is that everything gets done as quickly as possible and that everything looks silky smooth. Management is not good enough to iron out the bugs, which are unavoidable with the scope of the teams they're using, within time.
AAA is not a seal of quality. It's a seal of work ethics. Even if you work 10 years on a game with a small team and produce a superior product, both in quality and in size, it won't be received as an AAA game.

I like to think this is not the case with movies though. The history of movies is vastly different from games of course, but nowadays big budget films will range from anything with artistic inquiry to explosion-filled "action blockbusters". Big budget games aren't sophisticated yet. Movies are taken more seriously because the big names know that people who crave insight aren't a small niche. Perhaps this will come with time for games. I hope so, at least.

Indie games still lack the marketing impact that AAA studios can give. Publishers might grant you this luxuriance for a brief moment if you are willing to hand in part of your vision. There are no professional writers who are willing to start the conversation about their books with game studios. There won't be a Game of Thrones of games for quite a while.
Instead, we have "game directors" who'd really rather make a movie. Indies don't wish to unite in large because that would ruin their supposed integrity. I really wish a big innovative break-through in games would come from the indie scene, some argue that indies have showed they're more than capable of doing so, I just don't know if that's a way to engage the conversation with the public. We need the big studios to make a change to the environment of games if we want to change public perception. It's hard to say if they'll ever be willing to make something truly eye-opening.
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« Reply #20109 on: March 04, 2015, 05:38:48 PM »

There are no professional writers who are willing to start the conversation about their books with game studios. There won't be a Game of Thrones of games for quite a while.



One moment.. Cough cough cough! Nevermind...

[...]
We need the big studios to make a change to the environment of games if we want to change public perception. It's hard to say if they'll ever be willing to make something truly eye-opening.

The times that AAA made most of the eye-opening stuff is when there are technology jumps.

The next jump is VR.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #20110 on: March 04, 2015, 07:52:46 PM »

X game is awful because it does this, this, and that-- but Y game is not awful because it does this, this, and that because it shouldn't have to.

There's no sound rationale in assessing video games, just skewed opinions.
Opinion are defensible Tongue and no one pretended the contrary here, especially with heavy use of context to give "perspective", it wasn't mechanical objectivity it was supported subjectivity.

Except You can't do that
I can. AAA devs cannot.

You can't do that in reasonable time with a shippable date and decent polish on a given budget. That's what AAA is about Tongue

@Mittens
I never upgrade ever upgrade lol it's always mess up, start and finish project on a given version. But it was expected with unity 5 changing so much stuff at once.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 08:01:58 PM by Gimym JIMBERT » Logged

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« Reply #20111 on: March 04, 2015, 08:57:12 PM »

I think game studios take too much pride in being "bigger than movies" now. There's been this grandiose creep in game studios where the most important thing is that everything gets done as quickly as possible and that everything looks silky smooth. Management is not good enough to iron out the bugs, which are unavoidable with the scope of the teams they're using, within time.
AAA is not a seal of quality. It's a seal of work ethics. Even if you work 10 years on a game with a small team and produce a superior product, both in quality and in size, it won't be received as an AAA game.

I like to think this is not the case with movies though. The history of movies is vastly different from games of course, but nowadays big budget films will range from anything with artistic inquiry to explosion-filled "action blockbusters". Big budget games aren't sophisticated yet. Movies are taken more seriously because the big names know that people who crave insight aren't a small niche. Perhaps this will come with time for games. I hope so, at least.

Indie games still lack the marketing impact that AAA studios can give. Publishers might grant you this luxuriance for a brief moment if you are willing to hand in part of your vision. There are no professional writers who are willing to start the conversation about their books with game studios. There won't be a Game of Thrones of games for quite a while.
Instead, we have "game directors" who'd really rather make a movie. Indies don't wish to unite in large because that would ruin their supposed integrity. I really wish a big innovative break-through in games would come from the indie scene, some argue that indies have showed they're more than capable of doing so, I just don't know if that's a way to engage the conversation with the public. We need the big studios to make a change to the environment of games if we want to change public perception. It's hard to say if they'll ever be willing to make something truly eye-opening.

It's not that indie aren't capable of breakthrough is that those breakthrough will necessarily be clumsy and small. The efforts needed to solve a problem also take away from other stuff. It's something you learn the hard way, finding the correct way is about redoing stuff endlessly and trashing massive amount of work each time, when you make something in a proven format, you have example to look for and criticize to perfect it, you also have focus because you know what to do. Let's say I'm making a platformer, I know it will be a sidescroller, to use tile, to have enemy with pattern and end goal on a map. Now let's say I make a romance game? what's the best presentation? mechanics? structure? Imagine a world where only platformer exist, an expert in platformer want to make a romance game, I can tell you that romance game will lbe about traversing a map full of obstacle to meet the girl as a end point of a map, that's what game are today mostly ... it tells you nothing about the nature of the experience, it merely illustrate it in a dissociate way. That's why AAA that tries things that are too new often are broken, also why I oppose the integrity concept of JWK5.

But what's missing is still a deep understanding of the format of game, especially in expression:

- In theater there is this concept of the fourth wall, the mediation between the fiction and audience. The physicality of theater also impose some aesthetical constrains on its language. For example, unity of time, place and actions is all about how in theater moving in and out scene is difficult and can only be done in "entract" aka intermission, thus story follow this principle, similarly the forth wall decide how actors move inside the scene to mediate action, monologue happen in front toward the audience to let the public know about inner thoughts because there is no other way to develop innerlife.

- Switching to movie, this theater language persisted, but movie allow things theater could not, it allow discontinuity and freedom of the fourth wall. Where in theater you needed intermission, in movie you only need a "cut" it's instantaneous and don't break the flow, melies was the first to take advantage of it with special effect and telling compelling stories. There was also the fact the forth wall could move and wasn't fixed anymore, it lead to the realization of framing. And finally scene wasn't tied to locality anymore it could be anywhere. Also audio didn't need to be concurrent to action. So with a shift in potential of the main conveyor of expression the narrative language changed, discontinuity (or editing) mobility and instantaneity give birth to the language of cinema.

- Video game on the other hand expend on two media, games and narration. It's audio visual therefore it inherit all the languages of cinema, framing, editing, etc ... all still works because of the video part. It also inherit the language of games. Again the potential of the fourth wall change, as outline by janet murray in "hamlet in a holodeck", the audience now exist in front of the fourth wall as a public but also behind it as an actor, he has control over events and share responsibility for them with the performance, not just as an actor but also as a director as he move the fourth wall (the camera too). What's interesting is that the fourth wall operate on a permission basis, the game give permission to the audience to move or not the camera in contract that is based on context, but the ultimate authority is still the game. However game still has some limitation akin to theater, instant discontinuity of time and place are still limited by intermission in most case (loading screen). So games have actually two problematic with the fourth wall crossing it from audience to game (interface and therefore tutorial problem) and from game to audience through expended filmic language. Therefore we have two languages set to take in consideration that can mix and match. That's the difficulty of finding game's languages. Ludo centrism focus too much on audience to game, narrative focus too much on game to audience, and almost noone pay attention to the interaction between these two languages.

- VR explode yet again the fourth wall by making it irrelevant. But in the game to player direction.

- motion control reintroduce physicality by making the interface conceptually disapear in the direction of player to game.

So when we look at game that makes things differently, that what we assess, not how much it is original in the constrain of traditional design based on it's own content, but on how it hint us at how to use the basic languages of games, themes impossible to address using tradition is generally a good way to assess this.

For example you said you didn't see indie making big innovative breakthrough, I'll point to thirty flight of loving, clumsy little game which reintroduce the concept of instant discontinuity of time and place (I wish I would be the first Sad I had this idea for a long time but no content to support it).
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 09:02:44 PM by Gimym JIMBERT » Logged

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« Reply #20112 on: March 04, 2015, 10:31:17 PM »

Gimmy, why did you take Anty's profile pic
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gimymblert
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« Reply #20113 on: March 04, 2015, 11:19:08 PM »

He asked to remove the former pic because he was annoyed by him, I choosed one that is more in his fancy
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« Reply #20114 on: March 05, 2015, 12:31:44 AM »

I'm watching the twitch VOD of IGF atm. Please tell me I'm not the only one who finds the main host cringey af.
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« Reply #20115 on: March 05, 2015, 03:37:06 AM »

gimmy your avatar confuses the hell out of me everytime i see it  Waaagh!
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« Reply #20116 on: March 05, 2015, 04:14:14 AM »

gimmy your avatar confuses the hell out of me everytime i see it  Waaagh!
Same here. I keep seeing his posts and going "How did Anty become so erudite all of a sudden?" Cheesy
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« Reply #20117 on: March 05, 2015, 04:17:15 AM »

Torchkas, how would a hypothetical "Game of Thrones" of games differ from what is currently on the market? What kind of rubric would you use to identify whether or not its existence has been achieved?
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« Reply #20118 on: March 05, 2015, 04:32:54 AM »

honestly im not even sure if the game of thrones telltale games count. i havent played them but from the looks of it they seem to be based on the tv series rather than the original books and im not sure they would have been made if the series didnt exist. kinda like 95% of all lord of the rings games are not *really* based on tolkien's work but on peter jackson's LoTR movies (im not talking about plot here necessarily). so theyre adaptions of adaptions.

witcher is the only real OFFICIAL book-to-game adaption i can think of (im sure there are others).
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« Reply #20119 on: March 05, 2015, 11:21:40 AM »

I'm watching the twitch VOD of IGF atm. Please tell me I'm not the only one who finds the main host cringey af.
nope but "cringey" and its various forms are the new "epic" and "fail" so it is you who are the true "cringe".
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