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[Sir Raptor]

You mean just like board of sexist critics that judge and alter people work? Don't judge her then?
Remember when dev asked to put a women and where denied by publisher? That did happen, it's documented!

The solution to unfair judging is not an equally unfair judging in the opposite direction. Just let people make whatever game they want, with characters looking however they want, and if the game doesn't sell, that's the fault of the game, not of the character. Law of the jungle.

you have to understand that this often repeated line of "reasoning" is just hilariously uninformed fundamentalist status-quo defense nonsense. every single demographics survey shows that women are now the the majority of gamers: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/18/52-percent-people-playing-games-women-industry-doesnt-know

your law of the jungle cant explain why the industry refuses to take their perspective into account and instead focuses on the whims of sexist basement dwelling man-babies.

to a (very naive) consumer it might seem like games just spontaneously appear fully-formed, where every design aspect is due to some magical egalitarian market forces, but they are in fact made by teams of actual flawed people, grinding away, whos individual personalities inform every design decision. for various reasons, cultural and otherwise, these teams have become a sausage fest over the past 20 years and the lack of outside perspective has created the toxic environment we see these days. Anita just happens to be the one who has taken it upon herself to provide that perspective.

i assure you, metal gear solid 5 would have been just as good of a game if quiet had reasonable clothing, with the huge advantage of not making the majority of the player base feel grossed out while playing it, and same for almost every example that Anita brings up. extremely rarely is there some actual creative reason for the casual sexism in games. discussing this is not "censorship", its creating an understanding that there is a whole world of people other than yourself that play and enjoy games, and every single professional game developer i know greatly appreciates having become aware of this.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that women make up the true blue majority of quote-unquote "gamers". Pretending this survey doesn't include mobile and facebook games, that every woman with an Xbox on their credit card history bought it for herself and not for a son or husband in the family. Regardless, the "sexist basement dwelling man-babies" (great debating there by the way, totally not condescending) are still giving enough money for these games to tell developers and publishers that it's a viable market. They survive, therefore they reproduce. That's the law of the jungle. Answer to your imaginary conundrum.

People like sex appeal. The bad sex appeal, like X-Blades, throws it in for the sake of it and doesn't add anything else. The good sex appeal, like Senran Kagura, throws it in for the sake of it but still adds enough in terms of story and character that it's still interesting. And then people like Anita go ahead and throw it in with the bad sex appeal anyway, because puritanism is where it's at.

For christ's sake, why do any of us care about publishers and the industry? This forum is for indie game developers. 90% of my input in this thread has been in response to someone's idea of forcing feminist ideals onto every new person learning the trade. I'm less concerned about the old white guys judging the content of big business products, which are already designed to be more of the same thing that's made money for 20 years, than I am about the hip young white women who want to decide the content of even the most niche and independent titles to come out of a single person's computer. It's almost enough to make me want to make a purposely offensive game purely out of spite.

i haven't played mgs5.. but didn't quiet have to be pretty naked because it made sense story wise?

LMFAO no

Kojima's been through enough having his own games cut short by Konami and then given the boot. At least let him keep his imaginary photosynthesis girl.

[gimymblert]

The good sex appeal, like Senran Kagura,

 

Why should we listen to a guy who thinks that girl don't like sex when franchise and mass effect have an immense woman fan following for those exact reason, when fangirl ships erotic fanfics, when fujoshi created the yaoi movements, when Christine love, Porpentine and Nina Freeman make game about sex, and Cara Ellison, Maddy Myers + Leigh Alexander have written positively about game about sex,some are literal porn?

You just lack the nuance of sex and sexy and that's the main argument really

http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/02/hyper-mode-elizabeth-comstocks-last-hurrah.html

[Sir Raptor]

It's always easy to tell if someone has or hasn't played Senran Kagura. Just saying.

[jamesprimate]

Let's assume for the sake of argument that women make up the true blue majority of quote-unquote "gamers". Pretending this survey doesn't include mobile and facebook games, that every woman with an Xbox on their credit card history bought it for herself and not for a son or husband in the family.

bro, are you kidding me right now? holy shit. first of all, this is among the most sexist things ive ever seen written out on this site for a million reasons. second of all, the need for excuses to fill the gaps between actual observable reality and your status-quo fantasy narrative is painfully transparent. And demonstratably false: http://www.pcgamer.com/researchers-find-that-female-pc-gamers-outnumber-males/

by every https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/04/09/nielson-study-majority-pc-gamers-female-solitary/

study http://www.dailydot.com/geek/adult-women-largest-gaming-demographic/

done http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/female-adults-oust-teenage-boys-largest-gaming-demographic/


But even if it werent the case, the need for that gatekeeping of " yeah free market! bbbut the only games that count are the ones that i like" is patently ridiculous and obviously caused by cognitive dissonance.

[ThemsAllTook]

the hip young white women who want to decide the content of even the most niche and independent titles to come out of a single person's computer

I think the people who fall into that category are an extremely small minority, if not completely fictional. It might be said jokingly sometimes, such as Mittens's post you keep referring to, but it's definitely not the prevailing feminist ideology to want to censor personal expression. If someone actually wants to do that, then that person's viewpoint is absolutely worthy of criticism, but critics like Anita are mostly calling for temperance and awareness. To paint her and others like her as someone trying to directly control and censor things is a disservice to all involved.

I'm really curious how you're interpreting the things she says in these videos in that particular way. At face value, her presentations are pretty dry and academic. Is your perception of what she's saying influenced by opinions formed about her from other sources? If so, which ones?

[Sir Raptor]

I'm really curious how you're interpreting the things she says in these videos in that particular way. At face value, her presentations are pretty dry and academic. Is your perception of what she's saying influenced by opinions formed about her from other sources? If so, which ones?

Like I said, I haven't been talking about her or her videos for most of this whole thread. I've just been focusing on that one stupid statement.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

[Torchkas]

Some of you guys tend to get offended and then pretend to be offended on someone else's behalf (in this case women). While shunning the chance that there are people out there we actually do enjoy this kind of stuff. A poll study (of 4,000 people) on who plays games doesn't delve into the actual issues that they are posing, of what's supposedly wrong with games. While undoubtedly a higher percentage of women are going to be perceptive of sexism in games. I do wonder if the majority of them care at all, especially if you divide the casual from the hardcore crowd and become more audience-focused in general.
Your mum probably doesn't know what a "Metal Gear Solid" is.

[ThemsAllTook]

Like I said, I haven't been talking about her or her videos for most of this whole thread. I've just been focusing on that one stupid statement.

Fair enough. Can we all agree that that statement is a bad idea and shouldn't be taken seriously? If Mittens or someone else wants to defend it, that would be a more interesting discussion.

[FK in the Coffee]

Going back a ways but

what is it with Sarkeesian detractors and misinterpreting 1984

[FK in the Coffee]

Socrates died for this shit

[Sir Raptor]

Going back a ways but

what is it with Sarkeesian detractors and misinterpreting 1984

I was more thinking Animal Farm, myself.

Socrates died for this shit

The good sex appeal, like Senran Kagura, throws it in for the sake of it but still adds enough in terms of story and character that it's still interesting. And then people like Anita go ahead and throw it in with the bad sex appeal anyway, because puritanism is where it's at.

I mean that bold part is the point I was trying to make, but whatever. People see what they want to see. I see complex character interactions outside of titty jiggling, you see titty jiggling, and feminists see literal toxic rape culture.

[jamesprimate]

Nah, I see a straw man

[matwek]

For christ's sake, why do any of us care about publishers and the industry? This forum is for indie game developers. 90% of my input in this thread has been in response to someone's idea of forcing feminist ideals onto every new person learning the trade. I'm less concerned about the old white guys judging the content of big business products, which are already designed to be more of the same thing that's made money for 20 years, than I am about the hip young white women who want to decide the content of even the most niche and independent titles to come out of a single person's computer. It's almost enough to make me want to make a purposely offensive game purely out of spite.

I don't know about anyone else but I care because its important.
It might seem trivial when examined on a single case by case basis, but when you take into account everything feminists fight against, it soon adds up. The constant sexulisation of female characters in games, movie and tv. The wage gap between males and female doing the same job. The domestic abuse. all of it.
Whever or not I can see a characters butt might seem like a minor issue on an indie dev forum, but its a tiny cog in an otherwise massisive and powerful sexist driven machine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly her biggest fan in regards to the content she puts out, on more than one occasion I've disagreed with her views and opinions as they sem to go too far the other way, but we need people like her to be the opposing force against which a compromise can be met.
Her way is by no means the right way, but neither are the way things currently are, and without people like her pushing for change we're never going to reach that perfect middle ground.

... now I feel like I've gone way off topic...

[matwek]

People should just make what they want in the industry

I agree, it's just that what people choose to make is usually the same stuff, focused at the same target audience.

I would never suggest a ban on things that cause offence, as that generally leads to more opposition from the opposing side, who are (rightful) concerned that they are being censored.
With that being said I do feel like there should be a greater focus on teaching people about the alternative point of view, in attempt to increase the diversity in the type of characters people choose to design. People should be able to make whatever they want, but it would benefit us all if that pool of inspiration that they delve for ideas in is that much deeper and broader.

I don't see it as much of an issue in the indie scene and you can see some change in mainstream games, but there is still some way to go yet.

[gimymblert]

People should just make what they want in the industry

Tell us more about where it's not the case?

@Sir Raptor

You have never see any feminist going after Seran something though There is a good reason for that!

And did you read that? read it I promise it's good!
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/02/hyper-mode-elizabeth-comstocks-last-hurrah.html

[gimymblert]

ask feminist about senran kagura:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/2tdu61/so_what_are_feminists_views_on_the_senran_kagura/

Not the censorship you all imagine

[Torchkas]

I am a feminist.

Senran Kagura is okay.

[Landshark RAWR]

dont tell me games featuring constant panty shots/torn off clothes/holding camera on the titty at every opportunity have anyone other than straight dudes in mind

[FK in the Coffee]

I am a feminist.

Senran Kagura is a part of the problem.