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[zratchet]

http://pc.ign.com/articles/118/1188416p1.html

Notch has challenged Bethesda to a deathmatch... :p

What do you think of this? Clever or silly?

[C.D Buckmaster]

It seems a bit fun/silly, but chances are Bethesda's lawyers will simply respond with "No".

[Desert Dog]

If it happens, I think it'll be great publicity for everyone. Going down in gaming history, and that stuff.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

do they want to be the new tim langdell? nobody is gonna confuse "scrolls" with "the elder scrolls series"

[Klaim]

As far as I understand, the challenge is just for the real Bethesda team, not the lawyers.

That way, the lawyers works on their side but the teams, both Mojang's and Bethesda's developers, can still decide to change the name of one of the games, making the problem non-existing anymore.


However... "The Elder Scrolls" being an already known name, in practice only Mojang can drop the name. "Skyrim" have nothing to do with all that so the Bethesda team cannot just change the name.

So I agree that the Bethesda lawyers will not end it like this.

do they want to be the new tim langdell? nobody is gonna confuse "scrolls" with "the elder scrolls series"

I think they don't realize what they're doing. Certainly they don't care. They're applying the same rules as, say, the music, movies and books industries. They might think it's just routine business.

[Nix]

However... "The Elder Scrolls" being an already known name, in practice only Mojang can drop the name. "Skyrim" have nothing to do with all that so the Bethesda team cannot just change the name.

I think if Mojang won, they would just agree to have an Elder Scrolls and a Scrolls, not to drop the Elder Scrolls title. I would be extremely surprised if Bethesda's lawyers would be willing to do this though, unless some executive with a sense of humor made then back down.

[Miguelito]

Publicity grab by Mojang.

Bethesda just protecting their copyright, as they're required by silly US law.

No need to make a great fuss over it IMO. Peace out.

[SundownKid]

While it's easy to call Bethesda the big bad evil people, I think that naming the game solely "Scrolls" would be a legitimate cause for concern for Bethesda. I think that if he had named it "___ Scrolls" or "Scrolls of ____", he'd have a better argument with this name confusion business, but he had to go and name it a common word...

[Nix]

seriously. what a shitty name

[Oddball]

Are we supposed to care how two multi-million dollar companies settle their trademark dispute? They should settle it by passing brown envelopes full of cash under the table like all other self respecting companies do.

I don't really get Bethesda's stand point. Is The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim often referred to as just Scrolls? If not then they don't really have much of a case.

[eiyukabe]

Would you confuse a game called "Brothers" with "Super Mario Brothers"?
Would you confuse a game called "Duty" with "Call of Duty"?
Would you confuse a game called "Fantasy" with "Final Fantasy"?
Would you confuse a game called "Evil" with "Resident Evil"?
"Fighter" with "Street Fighter"?
"Raider" with "Tomb Raider"?

Would you confuse a game called "Scrolls" with "The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim", which is really just being marketed as "Skyrim"? How many people even call the TES series "The Elder Scrolls" instead of just the subtitle, which always features more prominently in the box art: http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Skyrim-Box-Art-Revealed-240x276.jpg  ?

[moi]

I think the problem is that moJang is trying to trademark a generic term, so Bethesda might be just trying to defend the future of their (and other) franchise.
Maybe if mojang accepted to make the tile more precise (like "minescrolls" or "scrolls of the dark stryderk 666") Bethesda would stop their lawsuit.
This is just speculation , maybe I'm entirely wrong.

[Evan Balster]

I also call publicity grab, but I think it's a really great one.  I hope Bethesda takes them up on this.  (I also suspect somehow that Bethesda has some seriously good quake players.)

As for the actual issue, I think "Scrolls" is a perfectly reasonable name.

[Alistair Aitcheson]

Would you confuse a game called "Brothers" with "Super Mario Brothers"?
Would you confuse a game called "Duty" with "Call of Duty"?
Would you confuse a game called "Fantasy" with "Final Fantasy"?
Would you confuse a game called "Evil" with "Resident Evil"?

Not that I'm on Bethesda's side here, but there's a section in this Wired article that points out that they do have a legitimate case here.

“The basic question here is whether the two trademarks are likely to be confused,” Methenitis said in an e-mail... While hard-core gamers would generally know the difference between Scrolls and The Elder Scrolls — one is a card game and the other is an epic fantasy adventure — Methenitis says average shoppers might think the two are related, since both titles include the word scrolls, both are games and both have similar fantasy themes (at a very shallow level).

So these comparisons, eiyukabe, are valid if the games have no thematic similarity. But if there was a game called "Brothers" about plumbers, stomping on mushrooms or rescuing princesses you might have an issue. A game called "Evil" about killing zombies, or an army game called "Duty" could reasonably be trademark infringement, as it's clearly possible to confuse them, or at very least think they're from the same product line.

I can see why Bethesda has a case here, and in trademark law, as Miguelito points out, your trademarks don't stand up if you don't guard them. That doesn't necessarily mean they should or would win the case though. I personally think "Scrolls" is perfectly reasonable.

Of course, if they lost the name or had to change it to "Scrolls of ____" or something, I don't think that would be a big issue for them. It's not as if they have a lot of marketing material out there with the "Scrolls" trademark on it already. After all, the game's not even out yet!

[SplinterOfChaos]

It's not like Mojang hasn't built up their own PR for the name Scrolls. After all, enough people knew of it that Bethesda found out! But seriously, i get the idea that some might be dumb enough to think there's a relation between the two products, but is that really a legally feasible reason? Hell, when i had first heard of Morwin, i didn't even know what Elder Scrolls was. When i heard of Oblivion, it took a while before i knew it was attached to the same franchise.

I think that it would be hurtful to Mojang to lose whatever small awareness there is about the title "Scrolls" much more than Bethesda over a few being duped into buying a game they thought was related, which i find unlikely because "Elder Scrolls" has never been known as well as the subtitles! On the other hand, it might be better PR to just rename it. The new name would definitely get a lot of coverage.

On the other hand, Mojang could give a middle finger to anyone who cares about proper English and just call it "Scrollz".

[Nix]

There's a lot of legal speculation here from people who aren't trained in law.

Also, asking them to change their name isn't the same as saying "pay us our living wages with licensing fees or we'll sue you" (which is what Tim Langdell did). Unless I'm wrong and Bethesda did in fact attempt to initiate a licensing deal.

[eiyukabe]

There's a lot of legal speculation here from people who aren't trained in law.

Fantastic observation. Are you trained in law?

The problem with this line of thinking though, which my friend has been exhibiting lately and is making me very crabby, is that the law is not worth a shit with regards to IP in creative and technical fields. Whenever I try to point out the ethical decline in the game industry where companies fortify themselves with patents on obvious things that the government lets slide or push for trademark infringement suits in extreme cases, he points out that they are just doing what the law allows/forces them to do. But I was never trying to make a legal claim -- I don't care about the law anymore in terms of video game production! -- I was trying to make an ethical claim. Companies need to stop wasting time fighting legal battles unless they are truly wronged and we need to stop using the excuse that because people haven't found time in their busy lives to go to law school they don't have a right to ethical claims.

There is no way anyone will confuse "Scrolls" for "The Elder Scrolls" and if they do, it is from embarassing ignorance/laziness. In fact, how many non-gamers (or even non-hardcore gamers) think of Skyrim as "The Elder Scrolls V" as opposed to "The sequel to Oblivion"?

"Also, asking them to change their name isn't the same as saying "pay us our living wages with licensing fees or we'll sue you" (which is what Tim Langdell did). Unless I'm wrong and Bethesda did in fact attempt to initiate a licensing deal."

EDIT: Completely agree, Langdell was scum of a different calibur. Still, this case is simply   lawyers being lawyers and overstepping the bounds of their moral responsibilities to look like they are more valuable, and if we don't stand up against such things through boycotts or at least public awareness, then this practice will continue and you will have to ask the government to name your game for you when most words are taken by corporations. Bethesda versus the current reigning Indie Darling -- It is clear how this is a direct affront to indie development from the bloated mainstream game industry wanting keep public attention and profits all to itself.

[Nix]

There's a lot of legal speculation here from people who aren't trained in law.

Fantastic observation. Are you trained in law?

I'm not speculating

[Alistair Aitcheson]

There's a lot of legal speculation here from people who aren't trained in law.

I guess that's all there really can be here. After all, this is an indie games forum and not a legal forum. I think everyone's trying to give their two cents based on their understanding of the law, which is perfectly valuable. In having the discussion, and speculating how the issues work, we can learn something that will probably be useful - any understanding of IP/trademark law is useful for a developer! I'm not under any illusions that I or anyone else here is legally trained, but that doesn't invalidate a view on the subject

[moi]

I am trained at law.My sensei was Chuck Norris