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[gimymblert]

Okay, reviving this thread because I'd like to bring up an alternative: Limited Animation.




Seriously, if animating characters smoothly is a problem, why not go in the complete opposite direction? This doesn't mean you can just cop out and do stunted work. Rather, your efforts are focused on making the individual keyframes look as good as possible, and the hardest part is learning how to use them efficiently. Flash animation naturally lends itself to this method- entire walk cycles can be saved for later use, pieces can be rotated and moved with minimal effort.

the UPA cartoons are known for pioneering this style as well. So long as the creator has an eye for design, the results can look just as aesthetically pleasing as any big-name production.

Well that was part of the starting argument with smb and megaman animation. They are limited in a good way (expressive functional frame).

@anyone else
Notice how wanda ALONE in SOTC had more animations in the back log that what is contain in the whole movie toy story 1 BUT still have to rely and semi procedural and blended animation. That show the scales of game against theatrical animation.

Actually eveything in game scales up in term of details. Some animator in my previous work, coming from regular animation background, was impress by  how many poly game scenery had to pull out. In animation you fake it by shot. In game you have to make things that look good at any angle/distance, there much more details (yep you have to render behind that dump too). Yet game are nowhere looking as good as animation.

In short: it will always be a problem about specific vs generic

[Barefists]

Disney guys who worked on Genesis Aladdin were really bugged out that you could change the direction of your jump midway through. It took them a few tries to find a workable solution that didn't look silly in the game.

It still impresses me till this day how the Japanese were able to take that problem, and turn it into a feature of fighting games.  The whole idea of move priority and animation canceling is now a staple in fighting games - they work against all animation principles I have ever heard of but still feel cool as hell.

For those of you not familiar with the terms, when an exceuted move as priority over another that is currently playing (e.g. Fireball > Heavy Punch), the current animation stops immediately and snaps to the first frame of the new move.  With no in-betweens.  No Tweening.  Nothing.  This is called animation cancelling.

To see an example of this (note the cancellation of even the sound played during moves):




I think maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with the fact that video games, unlike traditional animation is not a purely interpretive medium.  Because you are the one executing the moves, there is little need for anticipation in the animation.  I might be able to accept that, yes.

But no in-betweens but still working?  I'm not sure why.  Any ideas?

[jotapeh]

My 2¢: Anticipation is a method in animation that prepares the viewer for an action that might otherwise be ambiguous or difficult to understand. As per the example you posted, a character preparing to run and then dashing offscreen.

As a player in a videogame, you are already anticipating your next move. There's little to no need for that kind of setup because your brain expects it (and too much setup feels slow and unresponsive.)

[jonschubbe]

As a player in a videogame, you are already anticipating your next move. There's little to no need for that kind of setup because your brain expects it (and too much setup feels slow and unresponsive.)

I agree, but I do also believe that there are ways around this. For example, giving the player full control in a run and doing the anticipation purely in how the animations look.

In Super Mario World, the mario sprite is turned almost 3/4 in the opposite direction he is about to run (some anticipation). It sets him up for the next run/walk animation and still feels smooth in the game.

[gimymblert]

Disney guys who worked on Genesis Aladdin were really bugged out that you could change the direction of your jump midway through. It took them a few tries to find a workable solution that didn't look silly in the game.

It still impresses me till this day how the Japanese were able to take that problem, and turn it into a feature of fighting games.  The whole idea of move priority and animation canceling is now a staple in fighting games - they work against all animation principles I have ever heard of but still feel cool as hell.

For those of you not familiar with the terms, when an exceuted move as priority over another that is currently playing (e.g. Fireball > Heavy Punch), the current animation stops immediately and snaps to the first frame of the new move.  With no in-betweens.  No Tweening.  Nothing.  This is called animation cancelling.

To see an example of this (note the cancellation of even the sound played during moves):




I think maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with the fact that video games, unlike traditional animation is not a purely interpretive medium.  Because you are the one executing the moves, there is little need for anticipation in the animation.  I might be able to accept that, yes.

But no in-betweens but still working?  I'm not sure why.  Any ideas?

No entirely false, but if you take warner animation for example, there is many example of "animation cancelling". Plus it does not really violate animation principle since it also work as an expressive mean to convey "brutality".

That and jotapeh is right

[Bree]

The one thing I feel like limited animation games still lack is personality. After all, 8-bit graphics can only convey so much visually. Games like Sonic struck a chord because their character sprites were big enough that Sega could show off his 'tude personality. A developer these days has far more tools at his grasp to give life to their characters any way they see fit.

[Brother Android]

I think that a minimalistic game can have plenty of personality, it's just that the details are filled in by the player.

[Barefists]

No entirely false, but if you take warner animation for example, there is many example of "animation cancelling". Plus it does not really violate animation principle since it also work as an expressive mean to convey "brutality".

In my opinion, the cancellation in fighting games is very much exaggerated when compared to warner bros animations or even limited animations like Felix the cat, especially in celebrated "combo videos" like the one I linked.

What I find extremely fascinating is that such cancellation is actually celebrated and enjoyed intentionally in fighting game circles.

But I agree with the idea of "brutality", the cancellation apparent in these fighting games do give a sense of snappiness to the action, and make it feel very impactful.

[gimymblert]

Yeah 16 bits era with good artist led to expressive limited game like animation. Earthworm jim was overdone and it constantly remind you you are playing a game that tried to be like animation.

But sonic, megaman X or sparkster were decent enough, abstract enough, yet convey expression and gameplay. Reusing same animation in different context was also an art from that time, with emphasis on timing and placement (sonic vs knucles in sonic 3 for exemple).

I admire FF6 (or chrono trigger) scenography which is more subtle than todays big budget which is just bling bling blandness. In ff6 dominance, affection, tension, were all there and shown by distance, facing and height, that was emphasize by limitation and create more effective drama by breaking expectation.

The introduction of cinematic did introduce a lot of noise that lessen the conveyance of emotion by overdoing them. And the more ff get higher number and production value the more bland emotion became, because less tied to the scene and more to the budget. FF7 was memorable because it was about breaking expectation and overcoming limitation, death of aerith is just that, a powerful scene that is convey by gameplay first, setting second and icing by cinematic, the animation where "crude" but does well the job they were create for. I can barely remember any other FF cinematics despite i did not play FF7 (watching someone play YEARS later) but the others.

Otherwise i have already adress why game limit animation from theatrical qualities in previous posts.

[HöllenKobold]

I think my problem with your arguments is that I never found Earthworm Jim's animation enough to be distracting. The only time I've been distracted with animation was when it was choppy with bigger sprites. Like the PS2 Hokuto no Ken fighting game.

[gimymblert]

I'm nitpicking really, but it is an argument made with the principle of the art in mind, especially on slope they are not grounded, and they are not abstract enough to fit every situation.

No offense you are right too you are on the side of audience appreciation which is not my point at all.

[Chromanoid]

btw nice article at gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4594/center_of_mass_tools_and_.php

[jpgray]

Another point in favor of abstraction is that all quality animation includes acting.  This is by necessity--if the character realistically anticipates motion, conveys weight, moves in a fluid way, a bland, generic expression will be jarring if paired with an otherwise lifelike action.  This is why EWJ has his determined look as he walks--acting!  Unfortunately, there are some situations in the game where that look becomes inconsistent with the action--say, if EWJ is walking continuously into a wall, laboring up a steep slope, fleeing from an enemy, etc.  In the case of the steep slope, the sense of weight that fits level walking perfectly loses some believability as well.  It can be passed off as part of the game's humor when the animation doesn't fit with the context, but the context-specific acting and sense of weight that's a part of great animation won't always translate to all contexts, and loses some of its illusion of life as a result.

When things are abstract, the player can fill in those details as they are not conveyed and therefore not expected.  It's not that abstract is "better," but its generic qualities allow for a better fit in more contexts--illusion of life is never conveyed, so it is never lost.  I'd say Out of this World does well in combining the two styles--the detailed animation makes you feel the weight and anticipation of walking, running and jumping, but turning around or aiming the gun is more abstract and instantaneous--the detail in animation is subordinated for the sake of better control.

[Ravey]

Quick question:
Anyone know of an animating program that work like Deluxe Paint Animation? For example you press 1 for previous frame, 2 for next frame and 4 to preview the loop in fullscreen mode. Bit of a nitpick, but that would make things a lot easier for me.

[J. R. Hill]

I like Graphics Gale cause it has a floating window that plays the animation as you update it.  Not sure if it has hotkeys for back and forward though.

[Labbed]

Graphics Gale has a lot of hotkeys!
Just go to File>Preferences>Key and you can configure the hotkeys just the way you like! You can set Back Frame to 1 and Forward Frame to 2 if you want.

[gimymblert]

THAT for any of those you can't hire good animator... look at issun animation.

Someone make a freeware version

[Triplefox]

Quick question:
Anyone know of an animating program that work like Deluxe Paint Animation? For example you press 1 for previous frame, 2 for next frame and 4 to preview the loop in fullscreen mode. Bit of a nitpick, but that would make things a lot easier for me.

You want Pro Motion, which is essentially DPaint++. Similar hotkeys and workflow, but more features(layers, masks, onion skins, dozens of painting options that I've barely scratched the surface of, a sane method of pixelling alpha-channels...) It's great for anims and palette tweaks, and it can save assloads of time for making tiled backgrounds, once you figure out the intended workflow. For certain things(mainly complex selections, filters, text) it's still easier for me to use GIMP or PS, but for the actual drawing I wouldn't use anything else.


On a different note, something that hasn't come up in the animation discussion is rotoscoping. I find the look and feel of Another World and Prince of Persia 1 to be really solid, and both were one-man projects utilizing rotoscoped paintovers. And in the period ~1990-1992, they were able to achieve "blockbuster" success within an "indie" scope. (The later versions of PoP got additional art treatments from various studios, but the anims all originate from the same source.)

I've been experimenting with this strategy for a little while by starting from Poser's built-in models and their hundreds of poses and anims, tweaking and tweening them to taste, rendering and then doing paintovers. You can check out the results in this in-progress remake of Action 52 Ninja Assault. If you want to examine the individual frames you can toggle on debug mode with ";" and step frame-by-frame with "'". I'm not a very experienced artist so it really helped to be able to start from template shape and pose work and then add the styling and materials on top; completing this character took about 30 hours of work(a bit under a week full-time), and the second time around I'd definitely be faster and turn out a more consistent look. In the future I will probably also try doing more prop work at the 3D stage. But the main thing I think I've lost in going this route is the freedom to really exaggerate the 2D expressiveness and use non-dimensional styling; you get locked in to the source, and doing the paintover lets me add a little bit, but not the same amount as if it were from scratch. Plus, as long as I'm using generic sources, I can only do generic-ish characters; the really distinctive body designs are out.

[Ninja Dodo]

On the note of actually improving indie animation as suggested by the thread title, hows about we bring to light some good online articles about animation principals and whatnot?

Some good animation links:

http://splinedoctors.blogspot.com/

http://animationpodcast.com/

http://sevencamels.blogspot.com/

http://www.ninjadodo.net/temp/incredibleanimex.mp3 (PIXAR speech)

http://www.ninjadodo.net/temp/kahl/ (Milt Kahl - Disney)


This convential wisdom that animation inhibits control is accepted a little too readily in my opinion. The games I most enjoy moving around in tend to have the most physical feeling to the movement of their avatars and NPCs: Shadow of the Colossus, Gish, Assassin's Creed, Mirror's Edge... even Mario! Sure Mario's controls are fairly snappy but what makes him great to control is that there's an inertia and momentum to it that you can intuitively understand. Yet I've never heard anyone say "Man, I wish Mario wasn't so unresponsive!"...

Last problem is gameplay, the more blended and adaptable are animation the less easy it's to read game state, animation is one of the main channel to read player's state, "good animation" (fluid and blended with lot of details) just blur that.

Good animation communicates a single idea effectively (Staging). I'd say that doesn't conflict at all with the aim of communicating player state. Animation that is unclear is not good animation.

[gimymblert]

I know what you mean, key pose can define clearly what action is done.

But I was bit TOO technical here: in traditional fast pace action game, frame reading is important. Being able to recognize every single frame is vital. You know when a state start and end precisely, which is important for timing. Now i'm programming in 3D i have notice that blended transition, even well done, lead to ambiguity. The more tight the action the more it's annoying.

The difference here is about ACTION and STATE. While action can stay clear, state can still be ambiguous during the blended frame. It's a feedback problem, and feedback is what keep game animation more abstract than theatrical animation.

Not all game need that details of attention, but it can be important for some kind of game.