next »

[Scut Fabulous]

I'm looking for suggestions of games that modeled finances in elegant, interesting ways.  Ideally I'd like some inspiration on how to convey information regarding debt-load to a player that's not just a bunch of line graphs.

One example I can think of for a game that made finances fun was M.U.L.E.
M.U.L.E. didn't have debt as far as I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), but it was great for risk management, and taught the player some pretty advanced concepts with a minimum of clutter.

[Kottis]

You probably know about this, but just in case:
http://www.planetmule.com/

Paying off your debt was pretty fun in Animal Crossing, even though it was really just a counter going down as you deposited money...

[SirNiko]

The only thing that immediately springs to mind is the Credit Card item in Kid Icarus for the NES. This item was earned by completing a mini-game perfectly. Normally the player must have enough money to buy items from stores, but with the credit card it was possible to buy items any time you had a positive amount of money. If the transaction left you with a negative amount of money you could keep playing normally, but you couldn't buy from a shop again until you were back at a positive value. Even dying did not reset this value.

[Montoli]

The original SimCity had a debt mechanic I think.  You could take out loans to build things for your city, but you would have to make monthly payments on them, and pay interest on them.

I learned really quickly what a bad idea they were.


In related news, I am, I think, the only one from my circle of high school friends who currently has zero credit card debt, and who's student loans are all paid off...

[Seth]

I have never encountered a video game that accurately represented just how soul crushing debt is, but it would make for a very interesting game.

[iffi]

The original SimCity had a debt mechanic I think.  You could take out loans to build things for your city, but you would have to make monthly payments on them, and pay interest on them.

I learned really quickly what a bad idea they were.

There were loans in Sim City 3000 too, and probably the other Sim City games as well. I remember my first SC3K city failed miserably because I kept on taking loans to pay off other loans, and before long I reached the maximum amount the bank would loan me.
I'm sure a genius at financial management...

[LiquidAsh]

Democracy2 allows you to deal with debt in a pretty realistic and interesting way... although I believe there are some bar graphs involved.

More abstractly, I suppose that any decision you make in a game reflects a kind of debt in terms of opportunity cost(?).  Maybe that's a bit too abstract though.

[Montoli]

There were loans in Sim City 3000 too, and probably the other Sim City games as well. I remember my first SC3K city failed miserably because I kept on taking loans to pay off other loans, and before long I reached the maximum amount the bank would loan me.
I'm sure a genius at financial management...

But see?  You learned a valuable lesson about loans and debt, and you didn't even have to sacrifice your post-college life to learn it!  You're ahead of the game!

Take that, people who say there is no value in video games!  It is hard to convince yourself that taking on debts is a good thing after you've watched your city go bankrupt after you ran out of money and your loans came due.

Similarly, I think anyone in charge of public policy should have had to play Civilization at least a few times, since it is really hard to convince yourself that cutting the education/science budget is a good idea, once you've had a few rounds of watching the Zulus get to tanks and nuclear weapons before you and bludgeon you with them for a bit.

[SundownKid]

I have never encountered a video game that accurately represented just how soul crushing debt is, but it would make for a very interesting game.

In Recettear, the whole point of the game is to pay off your tremendous debt. And every time you cash a check, another far larger one must be paid, making you content to try and squeeze money from customers in spite of morality. Otherwise, you end up living in a cardboard box. The worst part is that the debt is from your absent "hero" father.

[Seth]

Oh, really?  I played Recettear for a few in-game days before it crashed or something.  It didn't seem to me like it really was that focused on the debt--more of an Animal Crossing type of thing.  Does the debt collect interest?

[SundownKid]

I don't believe we ever see the interest, and it wouldn't matter anyway, since we can only pay a small portion at a time. The game does have a calendar, and payments are due every week or so. The player never actually knows HOW much debt they have, apparently because it would be too tramautic to the main character. Of course, the snowball method would not apply since it is one giant sum. I suppose it wouldn't be a more accurate portrayal of debt management, but it does make you more desperate to pay back the debt than Animal Crossing.

[starsrift]

Railroad Tycoon 2 did an amazing job with their finance and stock system. You could short sell, everything. Plus, trains are awesome.

Not sure where you could pick it up now, though...

EDIT: It's on Steam for $5.

[Scut Fabulous]

The only thing that immediately springs to mind is the Credit Card item in Kid Icarus for the NES. This item was earned by completing a mini-game perfectly. Normally the player must have enough money to buy items from stores, but with the credit card it was possible to buy items any time you had a positive amount of money. If the transaction left you with a negative amount of money you could keep playing normally, but you couldn't buy from a shop again until you were back at a positive value. Even dying did not reset this value.

That credit card sounds like a pretty cool mechanic, kinda surprised more games haven't tried something similar.

All the suggestions so far have been really helpful.  Thanks a lot.

I think one of the main things I'm thinking about is how to simply, but effectively deliver the feeling of debt, and how it can force someone into taking spiraling risks.  I suppose the factors that need to be conveyed visually would be both the amount of debt, and the rate at which you are either sinking into the hole or climbing out.  Perhaps it could be visualized as a person carrying a load up or down a hill.  The volume loaded onto their back is like the amount of debt, and the pitch of slope is the rate of repayment?

Debt is slippery as a game mechanic because I think if you want to make it functional for a player to understand, you need to project some sense of how that debt will play into the future.

[Kottis]

I think one of the main things I'm thinking about is how to simply, but effectively deliver the feeling of debt, and how it can force someone into taking spiraling risks.

I think an important factor is consequences, that something bad happens when you fail to pay your debt (increased debt, lose equipment, or maybe making new items more expensive to buy) or something good happens when you make your payments on time (lower interest on loans, cheaper items etc?)

Smacking the player with more debt when he fails payments seems a simple way of getting him to take some risks, but it would have to be carefully balanced i think.

[Derakon]

Debt management is, at its simplest, a resource management problem. The player is required to make purchases on a regular basis to maintain themselves (e.g. food, housing), has the opportunity to make extra purchases for frivolous reasons, has a certain income from whatever source that is insufficient to do everything, and has the option to take on debt.

So for example, the desired activity could be access to new videogames. The smart/longsighted player might take on a loan to improve their earning capacity, then paying off the loan so they can buy the new games without hurting their ability to still do other things. The shortsighted player takes on the loan, plays the games immediately, and then discovers that when the loan comes due, they can't do anything except work and pay the loan, and meanwhile their clothes are getting ratty and all they can afford to eat is ramen...