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[Lurk]

 

You're killing an animal to eat it. How humane can that be? What, they give it a morphine overdose? Put a bullet in the brain so he'll be dead before the slaughter?

Renton: No, death is death. But I can at least ensure the animal had decent living conditions before I eat it. As I said before, I don't look down upon hunters, because they get their hands dirty and have a better relationship with their meal than I have. But if I can eat chicken that at least had a good life, as chicken lives go, and eat it thoroughly and appreciate it as he deserve, it's the least I can do. Traditional bushmen hunts would be a man running his prey to exhaustion. There are some videos of it, it can last for 8 hours, at the end, the beast collapses, and dies, and the hunter cries because during the hunt he became the prey to track it. It might just be spoiled white man nostalgia, but I wish we could find a way to respect those we eat a bit more. I don't know how to get to that place though, maybe not kicking kitten is the beginning 

[mrfredman]

Don't Dolphins kill for shit and giggles, too?

I want to talk about this.

The answer is emphatically yes! I have seen it happen!

For a while there in high school I wanted to be a marine biologist, and my parents sent me off on this incredible trip to the wilds of British Columbia to learn about marine mammals, hang out with rangers, and ultimately act as a volunteer tourguide on a whale watching boat.

On our second day out we hadn't seen any whales but we suddenly we noticed a pod of dolphins off the side of the boat. They seemed to be chasing something and after a while the captain noticed it was a porpoise they were after. They moved the boat closer and it soon became apparently clear that this pod of dolphins were attacking this poor porpoise, they had tired the poor thing out from chasing it and they were taking turns body slamming it under the water. It was a crazy sight, lots of splashing and the dolphins were actually leaping a few feet out of the water to come down hard on the porpoise. After a few minutes the porpoise stops coming up for air and the dolphins seem to lose interest and swim off. It was fucked up.

The head tour guide said she'd never seen anything like this before, and postulated that it was a group of males learning to hunt, or just blowing off aggressive hormones. Who knows why they were really doing it. Some of the tourists on the boat were pretty traumatized and it really shattered any thoughts I had that animals were instinctively peaceful and friendly. Animals kill and hurt senselesly and I don't know if it justifies people acting that, but it sorta helps explain it for me.

[Xion]

I don't really care how an animal raised for food lives or dies, as long as it's dead by the time I'm eating it. Of course I'd prefer it if its living conditions were designed to make it healthier for my own consumption, but if that involves hanging cows upside down for their entire life and then chopping off their noses for maximum health benefit and deliciousness, go right ahead.

Of course that's only for food.

I find killing for any other reason (except self-defense) intolerable, and always have, even as a kid.

Except flies. And even then I try and only smack them out of the air and not when they land so as not to get their juices everywhere (although that's mostly for my own comfort - I hate the nasty splats). Still though, even for a fly, it seems like such an undignified way to go - while landed and vulnerable, then bam! Guts all over the wall, legs scattered here and there, a wing lost, the rest tumbling to the ground. At least when I smack 'em out of the air I get the satisfaction of knowing it was a match of skill and not one where I waited 'till they were vulnerable before striking, and their bodies stay intact, so I just gently scoop them up with the flyswatter and throw them away.

[deadeye]

I also do think it's hypocritical to eat meat which comes largely through killing and torture (if you've ever seen videos of slaughterhouses etc.

Killing an animal to eat it is a pretty far cry from torturing an animal because you think it's fun.  So I guess I really don't see your point.

Butchers don't kill animals because they're sadists, people don't eat burgers because they get a kick out of a cow suffering.  Well, at least I don't.  I can't really see anyone seriously saying "Ahh, I can taste the delicious pain of this cow.  I must consume all of it's garmonbozia.  Nom nom nom.  I revel in the power I hold over helpless animals."

Food is food, and people eat animals.  The only shame in that is what you make for yourself.  Don't think meat is humane?  Don't eat it.  No big whoop.

Torturing an animal is something entirely different.  There is no benefit to causing something unnecessary pain.  Someone who enjoys causing pain in others is pretty damn broken psychologically.  A child may cause pain without fully comprehending what they're doing.  As for a child (or an adult, for that matter) who does understand, and enjoys it... well, they're sick in the head.  No two ways about it.

[Derek]

Reminds me of this article I saw on Nat'l Geographic:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081107-bully-brain.html

[Problem Machine]

Ahh, I can taste the delicious pain of this cow.

I actually have said pretty much this exactly. Suffering is delicious; maybe not directly, but if something lived a horrible live there's a good chance it's delicious.

I bet orphan is scrumptious.

edit: Hey, is anyone else imagining teenagers competing to eat kittens whole now?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I also do think it's hypocritical to eat meat which comes largely through killing and torture (if you've ever seen videos of slaughterhouses etc.

Killing an animal to eat it is a pretty far cry from torturing an animal because you think it's fun.  So I guess I really don't see your point.

Butchers don't kill animals because they're sadists, people don't eat burgers because they get a kick out of a cow suffering.  Well, at least I don't.  I can't really see anyone seriously saying "Ahh, I can taste the delicious pain of this cow.  I must consume all of it's garmonbozia.  Nom nom nom.  I revel in the power I hold over helpless animals."

Food is food, and people eat animals.  The only shame in that is what you make for yourself.  Don't think meat is humane?  Don't eat it.  No big whoop.

Torturing an animal is something entirely different.  There is no benefit to causing something unnecessary pain.  Someone who enjoys causing pain in others is pretty damn broken psychologically.  A child may cause pain without fully comprehending what they're doing.  As for a child (or an adult, for that matter) who does understand, and enjoys it... well, they're sick in the head.  No two ways about it.

I disagree completely; I'm pretty sure children comprehend what they're doing for instance, and I think torture for the sake of food is no different from torture for the sake of pleasure. Pleasure is just as much a need as food is. And pleasure can be satisfied in ways other than torturing animals, yes, but food can be satisfied in ways other than torturing animals as well. But this probably isn't worth discussing much, because there's not much I can add to what I said previously, and I'm not likely to change your mind anyway.

[Lurk]

Rinkuhero: From what I understand, the cutting of the chicken head and air gun to the head of cattle is, if painful, a quick death, probably a quicker one we deal each other with burning shrapnel and chemicals during wars. It's the whole way to the slaughter that could be qualifying as torture. If we manage to change that, the price will go up, people will have to cut down on their meaty intake, but we might get back the prize of 'most compassionate predator' in the animal kingdom. We're the only one who can care.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I don't mean the methods of death. I mean things like removing the beaks of chickens, growing them in constant daylight, feeding them other chickens, and so on.

[Renton]

How about sacrificing animals? It's a needless practice (in my opinion).

[Lurk]

Rinkuhero: That's where the 'humane treatment' label would be justified. I want my chicken and cattle to be free roaming until they get their death blow. I want them happy and healthy, they desrve the best, because they're going in my stomach later. I don't mind paying more for it. But I know that would'nt be the case for everyone. So I would propose a more equal redistribution of wealth among'st society, and then be hung and burned as the socialist that I am  . That's why we begin with a simple line in the sand by refusing to tolerate kitten kicking, and start from there.

Derek: "We will have to develop therapies to either treat or compensate for this lack of self-regulation that we think is there and the fact that it may be positively reinforcing every time they hurt somebody,"
In my humble opinion, bullies are the result of education and social pressures. I know some people who were like that as youths, who turned out alright, and even apologized for past behavior, decades after the fact, when they got their own children.

Renton: I did'nt think people still sacrificed animals in this day and age. 

[deadeye]

How about sacrificing animals? It's a needless practice (in my opinion).

Then how the hell am I supposed to ward off the evil eye?  And my neighbor's crops don't just curse themselves, you know.

[Renton]

I did'nt think people still sacrificed animals in this day and age. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid_ul-Adha
We don't use the Arabic name, just call it the sacrificial holiday. And I have some weird memories about it.

[Lurk]

Renton: But they eat the meat of the beast afterwards, so it's more of a ritual slaughter than sacrifice.
"According to the Quran, the meat is divided into three shares, one share for the poor, one share for the relatives and neighbors, and the last to keep to oneself."
 I thought you were referring to the sacrifices during some kinds of black masses where the animal is disposed of afterwards, not a meal.

[Renton]

I still think it's barbaric; but yes it's a meal. One you could've easily bought from a market. One you slaughtered in the morning, out on the street, waking up every child on the block, possibly mentally scarring them.
Not even mentioning the occasional inept and clumsy bastard who keeps stabbing the animal because he just can't find the jugular, or the dumbass who can't tie the animal down so it runs away with a slit throat, bleeding everywhere and screaming like crazy.

We also (although seldom) have the satanic black ritual sacrifices  involving cats going on.

^{(Gaah, you got me all angry! )}

[Lurk]

Renton: The fact that you were born in that society, and developped an aversion to these traditions from a very different past, is a pretty reassuring one.  We got our first photos of planets beyond the solar system, maybe it's time to give the goat sacrifice a rest.   

[shrimp]

Heh, I see this thread progressed in a reasonably satisfying manner.

Regarding animal suffering, personally I don't see a big difference between torturing an animal for fun and allowing animals to be subjected to some nasty shit just so you can have cheap chicken nuggets or whatever. It's like the difference between kicking a baby and not stopping someone else kicking a baby (sorry, probably a bit much, heh).

The sooner they can grow meat in vats, the better!

[Renton]

We don't do goats, here. Cattle or sheep.
But you're right. I get pretty worked up about this stuff. But it's some nasty shit, you know.

The sooner they can grow meat in vats, the better!

Which begs the question, isn't artificial life, life? Do androids dream of electric sheep? Is Deckard a replicant or not?

[Seth]

[Lurk]

Seth: It's tragically funny that no one makes any kind of move to stop the kid from his obvious intent(throwing the cat in the pool); even not really seeming concerned that he is standing on the slippery side where he could really hurt himself.

Shrimp: I would'nt mind eating artificial meat, I already replaced most of my meat intake with cheap soy imitation. I rarely eat beef now, and most of these occasions I replaced it with bison(since the fact that I eat less has offset the cost). Chicken I like, but I don't like how it's treated- at least for the eggs you can buy it free range, not so for the meat.