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[jwk5]

Why do you want to make a game that forces people to behave in ways that are congruent with your personal ideology as opposed to giving them choice?

Why not? In God of War what moral choices are you really given other than to follow Kratos' story and thus the path the designers had laid out for you. Yet God of War was still an entertaining game, even if you don't necessarily agree with Kratos' blatant disregard for the lives of others (I don't condone going on a murderous rampage in the name of revenge but I enjoyed it).

Another example is in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 where as part of the story you have to walk around watching (or helping) the men you arrived with gun down dozens of innocent people. It's not the way most of us would behave but it is part of the path the designers laid out to push certain thoughts or questions onto the player (both in regards to the story and its relation to real life events).

There is no reason why you can't "make a game that forces people to behave in ways that are congruent with your personal ideology", the trick is presenting your views (asking the player to merely think about them) not forcing your views (blatantly telling the player they have to or should believe them). It is also better to say "this is what your character believes" than "this is what you believe", unless you are certain the only people playing it are those that actually believe it.

[Philtron]

JWK JWK JWK JWK JWK, I agree with your differentiation between presenting and forcing your views, but it is a difficult line to walk especially since a person can present his views in a certain way and feel it is fine but another person may feel this is being done too forcefully. Giving people choices is a way to avoid crossing that line.

In the CoD example, yes you walk around watching innocent people get killed, but you can also choose (if I remember correctly) to join in the slaughter as well. This presence of a choice, whether to kill innocents or stand by, makes the scene more bearable for someone who doesn't agree with the morality of letting innocents die.

And I'm surprised that you're bringing up God of War in regards to moral choices. I mean, the game is so over the top that it doesn't even make sense to discuss morality; the game presents nothing in absolute seriousness. You could discuss the morality of killing skeletal zombie men and ripping out the eyes of cyclopes(plural?) but why would you. Also in GoW, unless I misremember, the only time you kill innocent humans there is a choice; you don't have to kill them but they do give you a health orb if you do.

Ultimately I think  this points out one important thing: the game has to be fun first. If a game is fun people will be more willing to play through sections that they disagree with ideologically.

[Feral_P]

There's a difference, which is usually clear, between preaching a viewpoint and featuring a viewpoint. COD and GOW tell stories, which feature actions, which people may or may not dislike; but it is clear no-one's really endorsing any viewpoint. The game Flying Dove wants to make seems to be preaching a viewpoint, as eclectocrat said.

[JOBA]

Even as an atheist/agnostic i've to say that videogames and religion (Christianity in particular) doesn't seem to jibe well together.
Just like there's something that seems way off about Christian hardrock & metal - hardrock & metal is loud, noisy and aggressive, yet the Christianity and teachings off Christ of love, compassion, peace, forgiveness, etc.

If you're "Christian game developer" (oh, god, that sounds so wrong) you have to consider that videogames are essentially a waste of time (even with religious stuff added in it) and most of them are downright evil(with all the violence in em) and also addictive as hell, would god(the Christian one) want you to waste time by playing games? Or worse create ones so that thousands would waste their time playing them? Or would god play hardrock? I really don't think so.

Well, yes, there are several table-top Christian games which doesn't probably fall under the category of "waste of time" and most of them are just simple Q&A games.

But if you're not really religious person, i don't really see the point of making a religious game. It doesn't add any value or a new game-play mechanics or fun (unless its a parody). Well, there's the conversion/faith game-play mechanics, but the game doesn't have to be religious to use it.

I kinda agree that you can't really make a religious game (what makes a game religious?), you can only make a game about religion/or a game touching the subjects and topics of religion.

Also, I'm shooting a religious porn movie.

[Gorgoo]

If you're "Christian game developer" (oh, god, that sounds so wrong) you have to consider that videogames are essentially a waste of time (even with religious stuff added in it) and most of them are downright evil(with all the violence in em) and also addictive as hell, would god(the Christian one) want you to waste time by playing games? Or worse create ones so that thousands would waste their time playing them? Or would god play hardrock? I really don't think so.

I mentioned in my previous post that mixing interesting conflict with (seriously presented) religion is hard to do without sounding preachy, so I can kind of see where you're coming from, but... that's not exactly an accurate statement.

I mean, one could argue that video games aren't really all that productive, but unless I'm sorely mistaken, Christianity doesn't ban unproductive entertainment (though some denominations might). It's an "in moderation" thing. And by extension, there's nothing wrong with creating entertainment.

But if you're not really religious person, i don't really see the point of making a religious game. It doesn't add any value or a new game-play mechanics or fun (unless its a parody). Well, there's the conversion/faith game-play mechanics, but the game doesn't have to be religious to use it.

I dunno. One could argue that about most games. But new subjects for games to be about do often inspire new ideas of game mechanics or ways to make things fun.

[Pineapple]

Also, I'm shooting a religious porn movie.

Nuns will be boys (boys being shagged by priests)

[The_Flying_Dove]

What? What people "of other faiths" have you been talking to that makes you think this? Positive things have come out of Christian institutions, such as Gregor Mendel, but why do you want to make a game that ignores the negative things? Why do you want to make a game that forces people to behave in ways that are congruent with your personal ideology as opposed to giving them choice?

I was referring to the fact that many people, especially irreligious ones hardly ever praise Christianity or other religions.

Apparently neither do you. You seem to be idealizing the Church's past and overlooking all aspects of its dogma that are uncomfortable to think about. I reiterate what I said earlier: Medieval Christianity had no problems with keeping slaves as long as the slaves themselves were not Christians. Shouldn't you in some way acknowledge this if you are making a game about Christianity throughout history?

I don't deny that the Church has made some very controversial decisions in the past. However, it is unfair to ignore to the things that were also great about the Church. No one is saying that anyone in the Catholic Church is impeccable (without sin). There is a clear distinction between claiming that the pope is infallible and impeccable. Often times, people consider the two terms synonymous, when they are not. "Infallible" means that the Church's teachings on morality are guided by the Holy Spirit, thus making them inerrant. No matter what has happened with the Church in the past, even with some corrupt popes like the Medicis, Borgias, and others, never have the teachings been full of error. For, it is written that evil will not prevail over Christ's Church.

And all the other denominations that claim otherwise are heretics, clinging to their own (erroneous) interpretations of the Bible. Now, we see tons of relativism present in Protestantism, as it believes that all its denominations are equally correct.

It should be pointed out that the people of the old democracy during the ancient Greek times were also not perfect. We saw plenty of questionable habits, like people indulging too far into their sexual desires, with tons of orgies, and other sordid things. Even bestiality ran rampant.

Therefore, in this secular society, if we are to truly pursue this postmodern culture, we are going to have to accept equality among all religions, meaning that there is enough criticism for each believer of any faith. No religion, popular or unpopular, deserves to see itself any more or less criticized than another kind of belief system. This applies to atheists, Christians, Muslims, agnostics, Baha'is, Hindus, Jews, etc. Only then can we see a true balance of power that holds peace.

[jwk5]

Also, I'm shooting a religious porn movie.

Debbie Does Dogma?

[PowRTocH]

Also, I'm shooting a religious porn movie.

See Jessie get nailed on the cross?

edit: This was my 666th post holy shit I didn't even plan that.

[The_Flying_Dove]

If you're "Christian game developer" (oh, god, that sounds so wrong) you have to consider that videogames are essentially a waste of time (even with religious stuff added in it) and most of them are downright evil(with all the violence in em) and also addictive as hell, would god(the Christian one) want you to waste time by playing games? Or worse create ones so that thousands would waste their time playing them? Or would god play hardrock? I really don't think so.

As long as games can adhere to the teachings of the Catholic Church, I see no problems. Any game claiming to be "Christian" that doesn't present enough themes involving a Christian denomination, be it Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox Christian, etc. can be considered falsely portraying itself as Christian.

Likewise, I do not think that contemporary Christian music, unless it is chant music (i.e. Gregorian chant, Roman chant, Byzantine chant, etc.) or really appropriate instrumental music (with older instruments, like an organ) is truly Christian. Of course, that is how the Catholic Church views music, but Protestants and other Christians may disagree on the classification of Christian music. My preference is chant music, for it seems a lot closer to prayer and meditating on God's Word than other songs in most cases.

As long as any Christian work (movie, book, play, etc.) does not follow secularism's ways (at least not too much), it should rightly be considered appropriate.

[paste]

Also, I'm shooting a religious porn movie.

The Second Coming.  Too obvious?

[Philtron]

It should be pointed out that the people of the old democracy during the ancient Greek times were also not perfect. We saw plenty of questionable habits, like people indulging too far into their sexual desires, with tons of orgies, and other sordid things. Even bestiality ran rampant.

I'm not even sure why you brought up ancient Greece to begin with but the ancient Greeks did not throw orgies. You're thinking of the ancient Romans. The ancient Greeks thought it was okay for an older man to have sex with a younger man (and there were rules about how this happened and with whom). And Roman orgy throwing, something the nobility engaged in, did not happen as often as you seem to think.

Also, bestiality ran rampant? What are you even talking about? I have never heard of any civilization, any culture, any society in the history of humanity where bestiality "ran rampant". It certainly did not "run rampant" in Greece nor in Rome.

But, aside from your lack of accurate historical knowledge, how is any of this behavior questionable? The orgies, the bestiality, the excessive sexy times? I mean "if we are to truly pursue this postmodern culture, we are going to have to accept equality among all" sexy time choices. Why hasn't someone made an RPG where you have to save ancient Athens from a plague of rampant bestiality? (Aristotle can't philosophize because he's too distracted by the sparrows that keep flying around so sensually.)

[Headless Man]

Does rap count as chant music?  I think it should.

[biomechanic]

I don't deny that the Church has made some very controversial decisions in the past. However, it is unfair to ignore to the things that were also great about the Church.

Could you point a few of those "great things"? It's possible that the non-believers don't choose to ignore them - they just don't know any.

[Vegas]

I don't know if anybody brought it up yet, but there was Johnathan blow's idea for a minecraft mod that dealt with religion.

Also like I'm sure other people have said, black and white would be a good example. Maybe something like Spore. Games in which you can explore the mechanics of a religion, and what their effects on society are.

Good game mechanics often reflect abstractions of real-life problems.

[Pineapple]

I don't deny that the Church has made some very controversial decisions in the past. However, it is unfair to ignore to the things that were also great about the Church.

Could you point a few of those "great things"? It's possible that the non-believers don't choose to ignore them - they just don't know any.

Charities, though religious charities use the money to spread religious interests as much as to actually be helpful and are generally much less beneficial to the people in need than secular ones.

[The_Flying_Dove]

I don't deny that the Church has made some very controversial decisions in the past. However, it is unfair to ignore to the things that were also great about the Church.

Could you point a few of those "great things"? It's possible that the non-believers don't choose to ignore them - they just don't know any.

Well, I found a question at Yahoo Answers that addresses this issue. The link can be found below.

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091230162823AAThWXD

Just to give you a list of a few things that the Church has done that was beneficially to society (taken from a post by imacatholic2):

A few things where the Catholic Church has made the world a better and brighter place are:
+ Relief from the Barbarian invasions of the early middle ages
+ Rescued Christian and pre-christian literature
+ Spread agricultural and animal husbandry knowledge
+ Started and protected universities
+ Sponsored and supported science and medicine
+ Created International Law theory
+ Developed and sponsored modern economic theory
+ Invented charity as we know it
+ Codified, expanded, and improved Western Law
+ Developed Western Morality
+ Created just war theory
+ Sponsored and influenced art and architecture
+ Developed the concept of inalienable rights

I suggest you read the book "How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization" by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0101.html

With love in Christ.

There's also one website article that gives eight good reasons for being Catholic:

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0888.asp

[esc]

I didn't spot this being posted, so let me:

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6302307/p-6.html

It's a video of GDC Design Challenge with Jason Rohrer, John Romero and Jenova Chen each coming up with a game around the concept of religion.

pretty interesting to me, especially Rohrer's (he presents first) part.

[Feral_P]

A few things where the Catholic Church has made the world a better and brighter place are:
+ Relief from the Barbarian invasions of the early middle ages
+ Rescued Christian and pre-christian literature
+ Spread agricultural and animal husbandry knowledge
+ Started and protected universities
+ Sponsored and supported science and medicine
+ Created International Law theory
+ Developed and sponsored modern economic theory
+ Invented charity as we know it
+ Codified, expanded, and improved Western Law
+ Developed Western Morality
+ Created just war theory
+ Sponsored and influenced art and architecture
+ Developed the concept of inalienable rights

I doubt quite a few of those; "sponsored and supported science and medicine"? The Catholic church single handedly kept Europe in the dark ages for... An age!*

But still, if the church wasn't there, many - if not all - of those things would still have been done. In many cases (eg. developing morality), they would have been better off done by a secular institution.

So, sure, the Catholic church isn't ALL bad. Just mostly. And funnily enough, the good things it does are pretty much all secular, while the bad things are pretty much all linked to its religion.

*maybe a slight exaggeration.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

a lot of those make no sense -- universities, charity, rights, and even western morality all predate christianity and catholicism -- take a look at aristotle for instance. he wrote about rights and charity and morality 300 years before christ was born, and ran a university