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[deathtotheweird]

There isn't anything to discuss, I don't see your point.

Sure I can agree with you that the game can be interpreted as having sexual undertones. Big deal, it's incredibly easy to locate games similar or even worse. It's not a big deal and it's not always intentional. It happens, get over it. No use jamming and derailing up a thread with your petty worries about sexism. There is nothing to discuss other than, yeah sure I agree sometimes games can be sexist. Now fuck off.

[Bandages]

Why are you so angry?

I don't understand why this topic causes people to fly off the handle so easily.

I feel like if I continue to seek some sort of mature response, I'll only invoke more sycophantic ire from the members of the forum, which will take this thread to a place that it doesn't need to go. I'm just disappointed that no one was able to handle such a simple concept.

[deathtotheweird]

Why are you so angry?

because you are dreadfully boring.

[iffi]

Why are you so angry?

I am at a loss trying to figure out the answer to this very question.
Nobody was saying that Spelunky was a bad game, or that the sexism was anything to worry about at all. As far as I can see, all Bandages is saying is that there are sexist undertones in the game, which I find hard to deny.

[Soulliard]

I don't think the sexist undertones were intentional. They are a result of the emergent gameplay, caused by the ways all objects (including creatures) interact. Other games with lots of emergent gameplay (including a lot of simulation and sandbox games) tend to have unintended implications as well.

And to those that refuse to have a serious discussion on this issue, chill out. Bandages has brought up a legitimate issue, and deserves to be treated with respect.

[moi]

So why this discussion is going on since may 30th is more interesting as a mystery.

[Landshark RAWR]

those fucking mantraps 

[Oddball]

I thought the Damsel was a reference to the really annoying women in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. You know the one, she just gets in indy's way and has to be carried through half the film. I think it's a satirical nod to the sexism inherent in 80's adventure flicks.

[J. R. Hill]

But the thing is, I don't really care that there are undertones to the game. It doesn't bother me, it's just something I observed. What does bother me is a total unwillingess to engage in any sort of rational or polite discourse into the subject.

So let me get this straight, you are bothered that we don't want to talk about something you don't care about?
 

[iffi]

I think the bothersome part of this is that it took months for anyone to post a sensible response that didn't merely mock or deny Bandages' comment.

[Bandages]

Well it's not like it matters anymore. Soulliard and Iffi have shown maturity towards my inquiry about the game and now I'm satisfied. Was it so hard to show a little hospitality and respect to another member of the community instead of being a gigantic asshat? No.

Thanks you two :]

[supershigi]

Hey Derek, just stopping by to say I hope you and Andy are making a lot of progress with the Xbla version!  I haven't talked to him in a while so I'm guessing that you guys are still pretty knee-deep in it... looking forward to playing more of it when you're all finished.  Good luck!

[iffi]

I thought the Damsel was a reference to the really annoying women in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. You know the one, she just gets in indy's way and has to be carried through half the film. I think it's a satirical nod to the sexism inherent in 80's adventure flicks.

That's the impression I got too. It just seemed to fit in the Spelunky universe when I first saw it.

I'm also looking forward to the XBLA version (even though I don't even have an Xbox), especially whatever new game modes there will be. It's looking great so far!

[Peevish]

I think it's always good to point out sexism where you find it. In the case of Spelunky, you've got a female character who is literally an object that you use. That's fairly undeniable. Using a person as an object in and of itself isn't demeaning, mostly just funny and irreverent, but if the default way of playing the game was to play as the woman and use the man for the same purposes, people would comment on how that's the reverse from what you'd expect. It's only an issue because it fits into a larger pattern where we are familiar with female characters in games usually being glossed-up game mechanics instead of subjectivized characters.

It doesn't bother me as much in Spelunky, mainly because it seems to be less sexist and more just silly, irreverently playing with the archetypes of the genre, so a shrill damsel stops pretending to be a character and actually becomes an object. But playing with an archetype still keeps the archetype around, and the best way to engage with that is to just recognize it and be willing to talk about it.

Anyone who tells someone they're thinking about sexism too much is not thinking about it enough. Very few people think about sexism enough; that's why it still exists.

La la la la la!

[Skofo]

"Sexism" exists because the two sexes are generally different, despite how much some people try to convince themselves otherwise.

[Bandages]

I'm not entirely sure that's true, Skofo. In fact, it's a gross oversimplification and very ignorant. But we've already muddied this thread enough with this subject. Let's all agree to drop it.

[SplinterOfChaos]

"Sexism" exists because the two sexes are generally different, despite how much some people try to convince themselves otherwise.

If that's true, then the goal is not to look positively or negatively on those differences. And not stereotyping--a line of thinking that denies women can be how we generally think of men and men can be like how we generally think of women.

But i think that we shouldn't put to much stock in differences. They are petty in comparison to our similarities.

[Landshark RAWR]

So...

Any nude mods yet?

 

naww, I just be trollin

[Derek]

"Sexism" exists because the two sexes are generally different, despite how much some people try to convince themselves otherwise.

               \|
       

I thought that was funny. Anyway...

I mentioned this on Twitter, but I made two games that star women, and I think they were pretty strong characters (and not in the "I'm a starship captain, lawyer, and assassin with double-D tits" kind of way). Not saying that excuses any sexism, but it's unintentional in Spelunky. The damsel just worked on multiple levels for me: thematically, as a game mechanic, etc.

But I'll be keeping all these things in mind as I work on the XBLA version of the game. I'm not the most PC guy around, but I'm also familiar with the feeling of misrepresentation/under-representation.

[gunmaggot]

But I'll be keeping all these things in mind as I work on the XBLA version of the game. I'm not the most PC guy around, but I'm also familiar with the feeling of misrepresentation/under-representation.

If the upshot of all this is more effective damsel bombs, I'm all for it.