next »

[BigMonkGames]

First off here is my Obligatory Introduction: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=45.msg222094#msg222094

Looking for general feedback. Is it fun? Easy to understand how to play? Overall impressions of visuals/audio etc. Anything annoying that should be removed or changed?

Note that this version is close to the final demo minus option to buy the full version and final demo will not have a survey attached.


I would prefer comments through the survey but I will take them here as well.

The game is Skee Ball type game tentatively called "Skee Alley" with three different locations, Arcade, Bar, and Carnival. (Only Arcade is available in Demo)

When exiting the game, "Skee Alley" will open your web browser and bring you to a survey. Please fill it out once in order for us to get the feedback needed to make the game experience as good as possible.

Don't forget to try it with a wired USB Xbox 360 controller if you have one. "Skee Alley" is rumble capable.

Minimum Requirements:

Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7 Intel or AMD Processor @ 1 Ghz

256 MB RAM (1GM recommended for Vista)

100% DirectX compatible video card with 128 MB video RAM required

DirectX 9.0c or higher and March 2009 update for any version

You can Download the game at http://www.BigMonkGames.com/downloads/

Thanks,
Michael Cozzolino
Big Monk Games
http://www.bigmonkgames.com

[BigMonkGames]

New Videos

http://www.vimeo.com/5237243

http://www.vimeo.com/5237326

http://www.vimeo.com/5237165

I hope I didn't offend anyone. I believe I have done what was required before posting in the feedback forum. I'm trying to participate and give others feedback. I'm really looking for some input here. What little I have gotten from other places has been pretty positive. I'm just looking for some more opinions before I bring some people in to observe them playing and see where I need to improve.

Please download http://www.bigmonkgames.com/downloads the Play Test and let me know what you think. Filling out the online survey that accompanies the game when you exit is preferred but I know that is asking a lot so if you don't want to do that then please give your feedback here.

Thanks,
Michael Cozzolino
http://www.bigmonkgames.com

[Dacke]

Hi, I just tried your game. It looks pretty and is probably a very good simulation of skee ball physics. I've never played skee ball in real life, so I'm guessing part of the experience is lost on me.

But I'm just not sure this is a game that lends itself in a good way to digitalization. The original game is about having the right "touch", being very precise in how you use your (not so precise) arm/hand system.

I think it will be a great challenge for you to get the controls to feel nicely intuitive. As they are now, I couldn't really understand how to get the power right. And the extremely exact angle you use for aiming isn't really true to the original game.

An idea would be to use another control system. Something more like how I imagine Wii sports games, like bowling, work. Possibly something where you have the user:
1) press the mouse button
2) move mouse forward, as if making a throw
3) release mouse button

You were asking for some more negative/constructive in another thread so I hope this helps

[BigMonkGames]

Exactly the kind of thing i'm loooking for. Thanks for the feedback. Keep it coming guys. Thanks!

[BigMonkGames]

@ Dacke

Well I tried implementing a mouse movement throw as you suggested. I just could get it to feel right. I have opted to do a sort of a hybrid of what you suggested and the way it is the "Play Test" Demo. I think it works very well actually. It gives more of a tactile feel and feels tight at the same time.

Thanks for forcing me to re-evaluate. When I have an updated version I will post so everyone can try it out.

Michael Cozzolino
http://www.bigmonkgames.com

[BigMonkGames]

New Control System Implemented in the download. Go check it out. http://www.bigmonkgames.com/downloads

Throwing with the mouse/keyboard:

Left Mouse Click - starts power bar
Pushing Mouse Forward - throws.

Throwing with the XBox 360 Controller

R Analog Clicked - starts power bar
R Analog Pushed Forward - throws.


Let me know what you guys think.

Michael Cozzolino
http://www.bigmonkgames.com

[Dacke]

Glad I could help and/or am helping!

I just tried the new version.

What I think you need to do (if you are to use the mouse) is to establish a clear connection between the mouse and the invisible hand. When I move the mouse left/right and up/down I want the ball to follow. The camera movement/position feels like a secondary feature and can banished to the secondary controls. The added move-forward-to-throw mechanic is still boolean-based, so it doesn't really add to the feel of throwing the ball.

If you are willing to make the effort I would suggest setting up a 2D-top-down-sandbox for yourself. From my (small) experience it's much easier to get things like this right when taken out of the fancy-looking-context. I also imagine that it can be hard to properly capture the interaction of the mouse and ball in a 3D space without a good idea of how they should interact in 2D to begin with. Seeing how you're able to create such advanced graphics and physics I can't imagine you'll have any trouble doing this. (If you need it I can probably help you, though ).

In the sandbox, try to figure out how to make the mouse controls work. Just have an area at the bottom of the screen where you can throw balls off of (and a line across the balls must be thrown and not dragged). You don't need to put in any game mechanics beyond this.

The specific control scheme I suggested before is just one way of doing it. But getting some kind of intuitive motion into the game is probably what you need to make it fun. That way a few friends can throw a couple of balls and have a fun time figuring out how to get it right. It just still like too much science and not enough game.

I hope this helps and that you keep working on it! 

[Massena]

Just tried the game (the first version you posted, though). What I'm about to say is just my personal opinion and might be a little "mean" 

I think this game is failing both in concept and in execution:

• Concept - First of all, as was already said, skee ball doesn't seem to be a sport that lends it self well too simulation, but I guess if bowling simulators exist, this could too. What's bothering me is the atmosphere/tone of the game. It seems to me like you're going too much for realism and not enough for a "crazy effects casual game" kind of thing. What exists of the game is just dull.
• Execution - This sort of games (bowling simulators et al) depend heavily on very well thought out, polished, intuitive control schemes, which this game is lacking. At the moment it feels like a game of luck.

Overall I advise changing the atmosphere of the game entirely, forget about the simulation business and go for a fun, flashy and colorful game. Also, you really need to make a good control scheme.

[BigMonkGames]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

@ Dacke. I see where you are coming from. I think you are making some real good points. I guess I'm struggling with not wanting the controls to feel too loose. I agree it still needs to be adjusted. Just not so sure I want to go all mouse control. I don't want controls like the skee ball game example I point out below.

@ Massena. Not mean at all. You are being constructive.I agree with your point on the controls, I think I have to disagree with you on going with the fun flashy game.

Take a look at this flash skee ball game http://www.bigmoneyarcade.com/index.php?action=playgame&gameid=335 and give me your opinion. While I think it does many things well, I think it fails in others. I personally think the controls suck and really feels like it's based on luck. It is gimicky which I think is ok since it is for the web, but just doesn't feel tight to me.

My control system may seem like it is based on luck at first but I strongly feel that with a little bit of play time that it becomes pretty intuitive. I regularly can score over 600. Granted I play it often but that was within a few plays of completely changing the controls.

I hope I don't seem like an ass. I'm really taking any criticism seriously and I think it is important for me to make adjustments based on feedback. Overall at this point I have much more positive feedback then negative. I can make changes til the end of time and not satisfy everyone. I have to in the somewhat near future decide what is the end product and hopefully it will fall in the majority end of the spectrum of people liking it. So thanks again guys. I will continue to make adjustments and hopefully in the end will be successful.

Still open to any other criticism as well.

[Dacke]

In order for us to give you better feedback it would probably help if you gave us some additional information. I would like to know what your target audience is, how you expect to sell it (and for how much and how many copies) and perhaps a little blurb about "what you want your game to be".

If you want me to actually enjoy the game (and not just be impressed with it) I would advice you to take some of Massena's advice. But I'm not sure we are the target audience, so I can't really insist on it. Your artistic vision should always have precedence.

About the other game:
It's kind of boring. But I think that has more to do with the fact that it is a Skeeball game than the execution .. I think you have to do something radically different with your game for it to be fun, but I'm not sure where you could go with it.
Compared to your game it actually feels much more accessible and intuitive. The controls are not that good. It feels more like throwing a dart than a ball. But it at least gives you some kind of hint that you are throwing something. But you do have a good opportunity to design much better controls.

[Massena]

Take a look at this flash skee ball game http://www.bigmoneyarcade.com/index.php?action=playgame&gameid=335 and give me your opinion. While I think it does many things well, I think it fails in others. I personally think the controls suck and really feels like it's based on luck. It is gimicky which I think is ok since it is for the web, but just doesn't feel tight to me.

That game, even though it is magnitudes of quality away from yours, does have the same kind of atmosphere yours does. And it's this atmosphere that's slightly bugging me: you have an empty, dark corner of some sort of carnival, with a looping, instantly recognizable, fair track. Although it might just be some sort of repressed childhood trauma involving carnivals and skee ball.  :D

Nevertheless, you're the one who's sweatin' away to make it so you have full right to do whatever you want and I hope you pull it off.

[BigMonkGames]

Thanks for the support guys.


@ Dacke The audience I'm shooting for is pretty casual.  Middle-Aged Mom, Young Kids, a person who likes playing a computer/video game but isn't a person who considers themselves a gamer.  My wife is a good example of the latter.

@ Massena I think you do have a very valid point in that the game is somewhat boring. So I have taken steps to ramp up the pace.  Skee Ball isn't really a game that gets you charged up. Kinda like darts lol. Though I enjoy playing both. You usually see people at an amusement park playing a anywhere from 1 to 5 times then moving on. You are now able to throw a ball a couple of seconds after a previous one so it takes some of the drag out when you miss and you are destined for a 10 pointer.

Observations on watching my wife with the controls that we have all agreed to as being shitty. It was agonizing watching as she missed constantly and having to watch every ball swing around the big loop until it went in to the 10 pointer. I had her try with the 360 controller and she did ok but was still pretty irritating. She did even worse when using the laptop track pad. It is very interesting to watch someone who isn't really a big gamer try to play a game with convoluted controls. I can pick up  all the things I have tried in the past pretty quickly and get around the same kind of scores.

I have decided I am probably going to hire a few people (casual gamers) and watch them play and ask them for feedback on the controls. I'm going back to the original controls of holding the space bar down or A button on the 360 controller to activate the power bar and releasing to throw. I know to us more experienced gamers that this seems like control is taken away from us, but from what it looks like, the people who may end up wanting to play this type of game is preferring that.

So I ask that any other feedback be based on things other than controls.

I will probably put the newly tweaked version up by tomorrow.

[Dacke]

Hi again. Good you got someone to playtest  for you! Playtesting is one of the most important tools you have when making a casual game. You need to know exactly what kind of reaction you will get from the player in every situation and really pollish away any possible annoyances to an extreme minimum. Seeing how your game will be downloadable, it will need to be much better and smoother than anything the casual gamer can find in a browsergame (to compensate for the additional hassle of buying->downloading->installing).

Still, I would advice you against hireling playtesters at this stage. Real betatesting is something you'll need once you have a core gameplay you feel fairly confident about. They should help you work out the last, few quirks. Right now you know that you have problems and you have an idea about what to do. Once you have a fix, it should be enough to let your wife or a friend try it to find out if it works at all.

And you really shouldn't be spending any money at this stage. I don't want to come off as too negative, but I hope you're not counting on making any money off of this. You are competing on an overpopulated market against people who have made it a science to churn out well-polished casual games. Hopefully you are just doing what most of us are doing here - making games because you love making games. Any money should be treated as a nice bonus. But I've got the feeling that once you start spending, you will feel the need to "make it back", which will take the fun out of it all.

Now I just need to nag some more
If you are aiming for the casual audience, you should really take Massena's earlier advice. This is probably the most relevant thing said in this entire thread:

• Execution - This sort of games (bowling simulators et al) depend heavily on very well thought out, polished, intuitive control schemes

I'm not sure what I need to tell you to convince you that we know what we are talking about 
I may be a more skilled gamer than most casual players, but I often play several hours of casual flash games every day. I think it has given me the ability to know what feels enjoyable and intuitive and what the general person seems to enjoy. Additional proof regarding the controls: Wii.

Sorry to bring up the controls again, but I think it would be misleading to give you any other feedback. My feedback is: it's not enjoyable to play at the moment. My identification of the main problem: The controls.

But, hey. I'm not even sure why I'm investing so much of myself in this. Aren't I supposed to be working on my own stuff? :D

Good luck again!