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[Optic]

Hey,
I'm currently working on a small iOS game which when complete I hope to sell for the lowest AppStore price $1
What is the generally accepted way an artist can be convinced to come onboard :
1) They want an upfront payment (I cannot do this as I have no spare £ for any upfront payments)
2) They are happy with having references for the future AND credits in the game
3) They want a % of the profits (this is the one I feel could get awkward as organising a fair percentage)

What is the most common / which should I aim for. If option 3 is the predominant way then what tends to be a fair value to give the artist, I obviously know it would vary project to project depending on the workload. For the sake of argument this game would require ~30-40 sprites, a few animated and some Backgrounds / menu designs etc.

Thanks for any help, advice or suggestions.

Chris

[bento_smile]

1 or 3 tend to be the way, depending on how well you know the artist, or how generous the artist is feeling. (Or whether you compromise more on how much freedom you give the artist, how tight the deadline is etc.) If it's a small game, you're more likely to be able to find someone who will be able to help you out.

I would avoid offering just 2, because it would put off anyone serious. Sadly a lot of artists get burned by offers of "it'll be good for your portfolio", so it doesn't convince anyone other than real newbies. After all, if you intend to make money with it, it's only fair to offer some to the artist. And it's a given that the artist gets credit for the work.

With option 3, it's hard to suggest a percentage really, because it depends on how much code and design work there is too.

If you have any completed games, be sure to mention them too somewhere.

[hanako]

Most artists will walk away at the offer of 3, unless they know you well enough to believe you can deliver.

Most artists will laugh in your face and then stab you repeatedly at the offer of 2.

Both the above vary if you manage to find an artist who is still in high school and doesn't know any better, but good luck getting decent work out of them.

People do manage to find artists on profit-share arrangements but it's not easy, you will need to do a lot of extra work to prove that you are serious. Building a playable prototype with programmer art so that they can see you actually HAVE a game will help.

[Nix]

Most artists will walk away at the offer of 3, unless they know you well enough to believe you can deliver.

This (unless you know the artist personally. But then you wouldn't be asking about it here!). If you don't have money up front, then save up some money so that you can buy an artist. Custom art is like anything else you need to pay for. If you don't have a job, then get a job. Option 3 isn't common at all in professional arrangements and you aren't going to find a professional who is willing to do it.

[_Tommo_]

3) allows the artist to share the incomes, but also forces him to share your risks in the project.

I think it's not something absolutely impossible to arrange, but requires that the artist is a partner and is in charge of the project just like you. No one will ever work for share on something on which has no say, unless you cheat him good enough (I did this in the past and I got out much, much bitter about it).

Bottom line, a partner and someone that shares your views about something isn't someone you can "recruit" on a forum or everywhere else, it must be a spontaneous thing. If you don't know anyone willing, you are pretty much left with option (1), or  

[bateleur]

2) They are happy with having references for the future AND credits in the game

Here's an alternate version of this proposal which I think they'd be happier with:

2b) The artist gets all profits from the project, but you get the references for the future AND credits in the game.

I think we can all agree that's fair.

[Xardov]

Only newbies with no portfolio have the slightest chance of accepting Option 2.  Generally, for an artist to accept Option 3, you'll have to have at least 2-3 released games.  So they're sure that you don't suddenly disappear.  With my artist, I'm doing Option 1, I think that's the most commonplace.  If you don't have any spare $, why don't you go mow some lawns?

[mikejkelley]

It's funny that everyone needs a profit-sharing model in order to get up and running, and that there's still the perception that it's somehow dodgy. It's smthg both widely necessary and widely reviled.

Profit sharing is the future.

[Fallsburg]

It's funny that everyone needs a profit-sharing model in order to get up and running,...

You hit the nail on the head here.  Everyone needs a profit-sharing model to get up and running. 

BUT most of the things that people do at the "get up and running" stage are complete failures, hence why those who are experienced think it is dodgy (i.e. they want to get paid, and know that profit-sharing won't lead to that).

[Kramlack]

Adding to what others have said about the profit-sharing model; I've learned the profit-sharing method doesn't work, even if your intentions are good. My first game was based around that and the game never got sponsored so I left a lot of people out to die. Now I pay artists an hourly rate, as well as get paid at an hourly rate when I do commissions. I usually pay 1/3 of the total up front as a trust fund and the rest when the job is completed.

Currently, my own rate is $10/h, but I've seen some artists charging $20-$30/h. Hopefully this helps clear some stuff up.

EDIT: Adding to what Xardov said. If you don't have the money to pay people, get a job.

[Miguelito]

3 is possible when you have a good version of the game finished and running. I wouldn't exclude it, but you need to deliver.

Otherwise, 1.
Strangely, I did art for a lot of people who did 1, but never brought the game out (and not because my graphics sucked, I swear! ). This is equally sad - I have my cash, yes. But then, all that work has been for naught...

[Kramlack]

@Miguelito: If there's no real NDA then you can still use them in a portfolio?

[Bishop]

I'm going for option one, any one have any advice for the contract?

[Leroy Binks]

When you go into any business contract you should get to know the people you are working with to some extent.  You need to take some time to talk, whether online or on the phone, to understand what plans and capability the artist has and to explain yourself and your plans as the game builder.  If he doesn't feel like he can trust you and you don't believe you can trust him, then it doesn't matter which contract option you choose, the relationship will be a failure.

[mikejkelley]

BUT most of the things that people do at the "get up and running" stage are complete failures, hence why those who are experienced think it is dodgy (i.e. they want to get paid, and know that profit-sharing won't lead to that).

Sure, but I don't think it's the arrangement that's dodgy, I think things fall apart at the "get up and running stage" either because;

1) Prospective collaborators can't see the vision
2) The vision is crap, and prospective collaborators can see that

Neither of which is profit sharing's fault. As long as you dot your "i"s and cross your "t"s on the paperwork, profit-sharing is the way to go.

@Kramlack: NDAs are Non-Disclosure Agreements. Typically they are signed by the employee for the protection of the employer and specify that the employee is not allow to talk about (disclose) the project to anyone else. This protects the employer's "first-to-market" strategy and additionally allows him to control public receipt of the message/product. What you're talking about is a copyright issue and unless you have the paperwork to prove you can use his/her art, you can't legally. Would he/she be willing/able to enforce or even care about you using it as part of your portfolio? Probably not, as long as you credit the person.

[GregTaylorArt]

Heya, I've been a games artist for over 4 years now... you have 2 options...

Option 1.  Find someone new to it, uni leavers who will work for experience or peanuts.. but expect poor quality.

Option 2.  Save some money and talk to some higher grade artists about budget options.


I personally offer 3 price brackets to help my indie clients out, but usually you'll just get a single quote for a job.

Good luck!!

Greg
www.gregtaylorart.com

[Atnas]

Just make sure that if you do get an artist for profit share, you don't lock them into NDA's or anything, or if you do, have terms for cancellation.

Some of my best work is locked up in NDAs for projects I was never payed for. (because profit share+no release) Seriously, as an artist I can tell you that being able to use art in a portfolio if things don't turn out alright is just as good as money because it means more jobs.

Nobody is going to try to make a living off of profit shares anyway, so give the artist a lot of freedom as far as displaying their work is concerned in order to entice them.

Edit: mikejkelly, one company I worked for cared significantly about the secrecy of the assets. Interrogating the artists for possible leaks was a large part of an investigation they conducted at one point.

[Eponasoft]

I do profit share and NDA, but the details are in the contract. It specifically states that if the production ceases or the company goes under, all the work is returned to the artist. I also release the rights of the protected media back to the artist after a certain amount of time (a Redistribution Of Rights Contract), and the NDA allows for limited distribution of the protected media during the production.

I am in the process of signing on an artist under these conditions right now. But he brought up an interesting alternate payment arrangement which I agreed to, which is to do both profit-share and up-front, but under the condition of taking out any up-front fees from the profit shares. That way, the artist gets paid some now and some later.

[mikejkelley]

Just make sure that if you do get an artist for profit share, you don't lock them into NDA's or anything, or if you do, have terms for cancellation.

Atnas, can you provide us with an example of an artist-friendly NDA? One that you would feel comfortable working under?

[Atnas]

Just make sure that if you do get an artist for profit share, you don't lock them into NDA's or anything, or if you do, have terms for cancellation.

Atnas, can you provide us with an example of an artist-friendly NDA? One that you would feel comfortable working under?

Eponasoft posted a very nice example, though I wouldn't presume to try to type it up in legalese, haha. Basically all I want, as an artist, are the rights to display my art if it winds up that the art will not be displayed by the new holder of the rights to the images:

It specifically states that if the production ceases or the company goes under, all the work is returned to the artist. I also release the rights of the protected media back to the artist after a certain amount of time (a Redistribution Of Rights Contract), and the NDA allows for limited distribution of the protected media during the production.

Really, exactly this. Though I would be okay with, and have come to expect no distribution during production.