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[Hangedman]

So it was unenjoyable because you didn't attempt to do anything but passively observe the game world, rather than interacting with it in any complex fashion?

The first thing almost every player does is realize they can hit things. Then they hit dirt and determine what they can do with it. Then they see a tree. The rest is academic.
It's a game that rewards experimentation. If you are unwilling to experiment, that isn't a fault in the game.

[Ntero]

@Bvanery

Proper feedback is that you did not enjoy it because your found that introduction to the game world was extremely obtuse.  Valid feedback, however it seems an extremely large amount of people have worked around that obtrusiveness so it is possible it's just got an incredibly steep learning curve.

However, calling it unenjoyable is just plain incorrect.  I enjoy it, Hangedman enjoys it, Iamthejuggler enjoys is, as do many, many others.  I find it extremely enjoyable.  It did have a high barrier for entry, however once I got over it, I've been hooked.  The best you could possibly do is say 'this game is unenjoyable if you don't understand the mechanics'  which is true for every game.  It's irrelevant how long you played or what you did not understanding the mechanics, because the actual issue is that the mechanics weren't clear.  Your judgement of the game beyond it's base explanation is irrelevant because you didn't understand it.

Also, it has a free version, which correlates to a demo.  You can try the free version indefinitly and it provides an introduction to the game.  I am quite confused about you complaining it doesn't have a demo.  Did you know it has a free version (both for survival and creative)?

 

My view is, if it's paid for, the developer owes a beginning player some usable instructions to get started.  Saying "well it's only an alpha" is not acceptable to me, because there are paying customers.  The game is clearly selling more than a backstage pass, it is trading on the interim playability of the game.  Thus for a newbie it should not seem completely unplayable.  That's the experience I had.

My opinion is that the developer doesn't owe you anything.  try the free version.  If you like it, trade in some of your money for a more extensive version, if you don't like it don't pay.  Easy as that.  There is no confusion as to what you are buying.  You are buying an incomplete game.  The only thing I can say to you is to not throw your money at something that you did not at least make an attempt to understand what it was you were buying. So long as the developer informs you that it is indeed an alpha version you are purchasing, why would not expect an alpha?  It's called 'Minecraft Alpha'.. It can't be any more clear.

Don't buy bread, knowing it's bread and then complain it's not a full sandwich.

And I will reiterate, that it is not unplayable to the new player.  Many, many people have learned the ropes, and it is developing an absolutely massive following of people who have learned how to play.

[bvanevery]

So it was unenjoyable because you didn't attempt to do anything but passively observe the game world, rather than interacting with it in any complex fashion?

I could not interact with it in any complex fashion.  I attempted plenty.  That is unenjoyable.

The first thing almost every player does is realize they can hit things.

I hit plenty of things.  You cannot dig merely by clicking once, or clicking several times.  You actually have to press and hold the mouse button.  Because there was no tutorial or 1 sentence anywhere to tell me this, I could do almost nothing.  I figured out how to place objects that I had picked up, that's about it.

It's a counterintuitive UI design, coupled with a failure to document or demonstrate.

[Landshark RAWR]

so now that you know you have to hold the button down, are you gonna try again with this new brilliant knowledge.

or are you just gonna keep coming off ass troll

flytrap

[bvanevery]

@Bvanery

Proper feedback is that you did not enjoy it because your found that introduction to the game world was extremely obtuse.  Valid feedback, however it seems an extremely large amount of people have worked around that obtrusiveness so it is possible it's just got an incredibly steep learning curve.

It's certainly got a cliff at the beginning of the curve.

However, calling it unenjoyable is just plain incorrect.

No, you just rate the value of different branches of user experience differently.  The branch that I experienced is totally unenjoyable.

Also, it has a free version, which correlates to a demo.  You can try the free version indefinitly and it provides an introduction to the game.

If you're referring to Minecraft Classic, it's boring as ****.  But at least I was able to dig.  By clicking on blocks.  Didn't have to hold anything down.

I am quite confused about you complaining it doesn't have a demo.  Did you know it has a free version (both for survival and creative)?

Minecraft Alpha does not have a free demo.  Minecraft Classic is not the same game, and its availability is being phased out.

My opinion is that the developer doesn't owe you anything.

My opinion is if the developer takes your money, he owes you a basically working product, and so does every legal jurisdiction I know of.  Now of course, software always has this wonderful license agreement disclaiming merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose.  So unfortunately he doesn't, legally, owe me a tutorial, but he does owe me a piece of software that's capable of running on a reasonable machine.  But even that might be a moral or expectations sentiment rather than a legal sentiment.  IANAL, but a strict reading of the law may say that a developer can take your money and screw you.  The remedy of consumers who don't like this sort of treatment, is to make the software's deficiencies and the vendor's attitude widely known.  Consequently, most vendors will disagree with you.  They feel they owe their customers something.

[Landshark RAWR]

I guess not

[team_q]

It's a counterintuitive UI design, coupled with a failure to document or demonstrate.

but,

I was determined to have the "cold" experience of the game.

so by your own admission, you willingly ignored available materials on how to play the game, then failed to know how to play the game, which, as stated, is in a no where completed state, which you are aware of, stating

Traditionally, alpha is also not for making money.  I say developers should not be allowed to have their cake and eat it too.

Times they are a changing, I bought Mount and Blade, probably 4 years before it was properly released, for a greatly reduced price, for access to the game in an early Alpha state. These early reduced price purchases allow developers to continue, funded by the very people who want their game.

If a large number of people manage to play and enjoy the game, which after 3 hours, you can't pierce, maybe it isn't the game, or everyone else. It's unfortunate that you were unable to get your teeth into this excellent game.

[bvanevery]

so now that you know you have to hold the button down, are you gonna try again with this new brilliant knowledge.

At some point, but I was up awful late slogging through it cluelessly last night.  Once I do try it, I may not post here about it either.  Among other reasons, I'm not convinced the dev is actually present and listening.  So then it just becomes an argument about game design and production.  There are many venues where I can do that, and I think I might prefer to do it in a place with fewer fans.

or are you just gonna keep coming off ass troll

I seem to be pursuing an educational mission about why I gave the feedback I did.  In the last several posts, people here seem to either partially or fully understand the feedback, and its validity in a Feedback forum, although they weight the value of it differently.

Am I going to treat you with intellectual respect in these forums, or am I going to start ignoring you?  You don't even know what a Troll is.  For you, it's anything you don't like.  It doesn't actually mean "person in a forum whose attitude I don't like that I don't agree with that wears me out."  If that were true, 2/3 of people in forums would be Trolls at one time or another.  Go look up the historical meaning of the term.

[Guillaume]

Similarly to a lot of people here, I have played Minecraft probably more than any other game in my entire life. I bought it around January or February last year (I think there was about 10k buyers when I bought it), and have played it on and off since then, probably cumulating over 100 hours of gameplay.

I think the only game where I spent a similar amount of time was Pokemon Silver on the Game Boy, but that's about it.

And I only paid 10$ for that? Man, I would feel like the hugest jerk on Earth for claiming that Notch owes me anything. That's barely the price of 2 McDonald's meals.

I don't mean to come off as a snob, but I kind of agree with people who say that this game is only as fun as the player is creative and imaginative.

[bvanevery]

I was determined to have the "cold" experience of the game.

so by your own admission, you willingly ignored available materials on how to play the game,

I willfully ignored nothing.  The contract between player and developer is that the developer includes a README, an in-game sentence at the bottom of a status bar, an in-game help file, a balloon help, a key binding, a basically intuitive UI convention, a hyperlink in a Start Menu folder, something, to get the player up and running with their game.  It's not, Google and punt around trying to figure out how the heck to get started.  The mainstream game industry opinion of these issues is that players do not read manuals at all.  I'm not sympathetic to wrapping oneself in the indie flag here, it's just bad or incomplete design.

If a large number of people manage to play and enjoy the game, which after 3 hours, you can't pierce, maybe it isn't the game, or everyone else. It's unfortunate that you were unable to get your teeth into this excellent game.

Wow I'm really not going to get you to see any merit in traditional, widely accepted game industry UI canon.  You're stubborn like that.  You're reminding me of arguments people had 15 years ago, when people could actually make careers advocating such "new UI principles" on Gamasutra.  I will stop trying to convince you, as those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

[TheLastBanana]

The game is in Alpha. Notch hasn't yet had time to fully document everything. There is info in the wiki, but it isn't always easy to find. If you can't figure it out on your own, that's fair enough, but many people do and that's why it's not Notch's top priority to get documentation out for it.
Your feedback that it's difficult to get used to at first is fair. However, the part people are disagreeing with is that you feel the entire game is ruined because it doesn't explain everything to you. It seems like just a bit of an overreaction.
The other issue people are having is that you are complaining that you bought an unfinished game, and that this should be fixed. The game is being constantly updated, with no signs of stopping. I don't see where the problem here is. You seem to be implying that you paid for a game that comes with a README, because it's some kind of unwritten rule for software. There will be a README at some point, but presently, there isn't. That's part of what buying an alpha version of a game entails. If you can't deal with the fact that alpha versions don't include everything, then you probably shouldn't have bought the alpha. Before you claim that you would have no way of knowing, notice that you can actually download the game before you've bought it, and you could easily see that there is no README.

Nobody has a problem with you giving feedback. The problem is the way you're giving it - you're coming off as straight-out bashing the game, not so much helping to improve it.

[OneMoreGo]

You know, if you tried your new found "hold mouse button down" knowledge you wouldn't have time to post arguments on here bvanevery as you would be too engrossed in the game :D  Or is this your game?

Back to feedback - I would like to see tooltips on collected items.

[Riley Adams]

bvanevery,

You have a valid point, the game needs a tutorial, the greyed out "tutorial" button is evidence that Notch realizes this and intends to add one, but pointing it out in a forum such as this certainly doesn't hurt. What does hurt is a series of long, condescending and argumentative posts; you've long since made your initial point clear.


Back on topic, I for one really enjoy the game, I bought it a few days ago and its the first game in a couple years that I've been able to play for more than 15 minutes without losing interest. I agree it needs a tutorial, and some sort of ingame reference for the crafting stuff would help. But as-is I've already gotten my money's worth, and I'm interested to see where it goes from here.

[FishyBoy]

See, I just don't see how someone who regularly plays video games couldn't figure out the controls. You've got a mouse, your first instinct is to click. You click once on a block, you hear a digging sound and see a little crack form. Now if you rapidly clicking, you'll see nothing happens. You might notice with experimentation that holding the button longer makes the crack grow bigger, and so you realize that by holding the button you can dig. I think this is really the best design he can do without explicitly telling you how it works. You can't really fault the developer for what is really a pretty huge mistake on your part.

[dEnamed]

Well, I thought it was pretty confusing that the crafting results differ based on their position. For this reason alone, I was somewhat lost, not being able to do much and thus finding a quick and gibbed end as soon as night fell. I didn't particularly enjoy those early hours in the game.
However once I looked things up, the whole world and all the options unfolded. From this point on the game turned out to be a great experience. At the moment, the crafting options don't make a lot of sense to me. I think the main issue is the dependancy on the position of crafting ingredients. In the beginning, I found myself trying different combinations. Whenever one didn't work, I'd move on to the next one. How should I have known (strictly in game knowledge) that if only I had placed the ingredients one tile to the right, I'd have been successful? Google can cure that lack of knowledge but also takes out a lot of fun in figuring out these things on your own.

[Ntero]

No, you just rate the value of different branches of user experience differently.  The branch that I experienced is totally unenjoyable.

But the branch you experienced was also experienced by hundreds of thousands of others, who enjoyed it enough to continue.  Unenjoyable means can't be enjoyed.  So long as even one person, let alone hundreds of thousands, enjoyed it it is not unenjoyable.

I don't like climbing.  I tried it and found it uncomfortable and frustrating.  But I'd be completely retarded to call it unenjoyable, knowing full well others enjoyed it.

If you're referring to Minecraft Classic, it's boring as ****.  But at least I was able to dig.  By clicking on blocks.  Didn't have to hold anything down.

Minecraft Alpha does not have a free demo.  Minecraft Classic is not the same game, and its availability is being phased out.

Minecraft Survival Classic has the same 'hold to break' mechanic that you speak of, and contains basic crafting and monsters.  Minecraft classic is in fact just a previous version of Minecraft Alpha, and is a fantastic introduction/demo.

Or did you just play Creative once and not actually try out both free versions?

My opinion is if the developer takes your money, he owes you a basically working product, and so does every legal jurisdiction I know of.

They owe their customers exactly what they offered in the first place.  That is all.  If he doesn't advertise a finished product (I'll assume you meant finished cause it works perfectly), then he doesn't owe a finished product.

You bought Minecraft Alpha.  You purchased a product that advertised it's incomplete state and then complain it's incomplete.

If I sold you a truck without wheels, you can't complain the truck is missing wheels.  I told you it was missing wheels and, more importantly, you bought it knowing it was incomplete.

You bought an alpha state game, knowing full well it was in alpha state, and complain that it's in alpha state.  Quit being an idiot take responsibilty for your own damn decisions.  If you didn't want to play a game in alpha state, then don't and leave it right the hell alone, but trying to bitch about it being incomplete and masking it as a critique of a game that advertises itself as incomplete is stupid.

[JamesGecko]

I don't think Notch owes people who buy a slightly buggy and obviously incomplete game anything other than a slightly buggy and obviously incomplete game. I mean, It's not like anything different happens any time Bethesda Softworks releases a new Elder Scrolls game.

I, in fact, walked around trying to single click on things. I'd forgotten about that. Then I figured out to hold the mouse button down. Then I pulled up the minecraft wiki and started building things. Then I hid underground for three days, freaking out at every noise. When last we saw our intrepid hero, he had built a moderately large fort on the side of a cliff and was farming monsters in pit trap.

Sidenote, if we ever get any ninja monsters that go all base jumping off cliffs, I'm doomed.

I haven't played much recently, but I plan on nabbing a bunch of friends and getting back into things when you can fight monsters in multiplayer. I think I got my $13 worth. Although it doesn't look like bvanevery bought it? It's free for a little bit yet this weekend; think of it as a demo. You know how to dig. Google up some minecraft wiki/tutorials for the other stuff and go play!

[Landshark RAWR]

This game needs plantable tower caps :D

[Laremere]

Yeah, I played it a bunch today during the "free weekend" and basically confirmed my reason for not buying the game up to this point: I enjoy it so much that I know I will play it for hours and hours on end.  However I think I'm going to buy it once payment starts working again since once mobs get into multiplayer I know it will just be a blast for having at lan parties.

As for being difficult, I kinda watched a bunch of youtube videos and read over the wiki awhile back, so I knew what to do when I first started playing.  I'm playing on hard because, well, I like hard games.  I died once in an old game because I fell down my shaft, then started a new world where I built closer to the spawn.  I actually spent the first night in a giant tree looking over the mob infested world for a place where I'd build once the sun came back up.  I also had some creepers at my little house that I died to in one morning, leaving a big crater near my house.  It was pretty fun battling them, and I managed to get the first one without any damage.  So, yeah, I'm having no problems and I'm loving it.

[team_q]

I willfully ignored nothing.

Not true, you said you wanted to have a 'cold' experence, claiming you only wanted to use the game as a resource. then went off on how you couldn't find any information. This, buddy, is willfully ignoring the collected knowledge of thousands of players.

  The contract between player and developer is that the developer includes a README, an in-game sentence at the bottom of a status bar, an in-game help file, a balloon help, a key binding, a basito get the player up and running with their game.  It's not, Google and punt around trying to figure out how the heck to get started.  The mainstream gcally intuitive UI convention, a hyperlink in a Start Menu folder, something, ame industry opinion of these issues is that players do not read manuals at all.  I'm not sympathetic to wrapping oneself in the indie flag here, it's just bad or incomplete design.

Incomplete design? Almost like the game is in a preproduction phase? I think you might be starting to get it, this game is a total WIP. Also, you will defend to the death someone who needs to work on their art, wrapping them tightly in, your words, the 'indie flag' but you refuse to extend the same gratitude when it comes to UI design?

Wow I'm really not going to get you to see any merit in traditional, widely accepted game industry UI canon.  You're stubborn like that.  You're reminding me of arguments people had 15 years ago, when people could actually make careers advocating such "new UI principles" on Gamasutra.  I will stop trying to convince you, as those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

Life's easy when you put words into other's mouths, then crow about how ignorant and stubborn they are.

Also, dude, it isn't what you are saying that people take issue with, it's how you say it. This is the second thread where it happened! I don't understand why someone who has such an apperent love for indie games styles themselves as a contrarian to indie games, SO HARD. It's like that dude who claimed he was the most punk because he was a Christian who backed the GOP and the NRA.