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[Skofo]

There's a similar project called CoffeeScript. CoffeeScript is a language which is pretty much JavaScript with a Ruby-like syntax and extra stuff like classes. I really like what I've seen of it.

[Core Xii]

Again, not sure what's not to understand here. "Would be valid if" has a conditional statement following it, which your recommended method fails. Either you are feigning ignorance, or simply scanning posts for weak points out of context, or deliberately misinterpreting - in any of these cases, I have to bring into question your "INTP mission" of seeking clarity.

Um... Here's what I said before...:

All I need to do is click the link once and Firefox gives me the option to just open in, requiring another click. No downloading, installation, finding anything... Provided the game is designed to work that way, of course.

So my recommended method does not indeed fail your conditional, which is why it perplexes me that you included it in the first place.

Frankly your posts are beginning to resemble personal attacks to my being rather than the subject of debate. Seems like you haven't really been paying any attention to what I've actually been saying, only to the "tone of my voice" so to speak.

That said, if you can find a way to cause permanent harm to any computer, utilizing only Javascript, Flash and a standard Browser - I will gladly run said software and report the results via screencast. It is my hypothesis that the worst you could possibly do would be crash the browser. An annoyance, at best.

The worst that can happen is a bug that allows the perpetrator to execute arbitrary code. Every additional layer of complexity from the OS up to the ActionScript interpreter in Flash introduces another system full of exploitable potential. The more middlemen the less security. If the application runs natively, you only have to worry about OS security.

Saying that only executables should be games is completely silly, thats very Windows 95 mentality. When you run a binary, you are "trusting" the executable is not going to harm your machine.

Only in the context of Windows. E.g. Linux does not have this problem because it includes proper permissions management at the OS level. You can full well disallow an executable from doing anything at all but run, access the Internet and use a temporary location to store its data; Pretty much the native binary equivalent of Flash.

To reiterate, you can make a regular executable that:

• Runs from any location without installation
• Downloads all its resources as it runs

And that covers everything Flash does. In addition:

• Better performance from native binary
• Ability to right-click

There's probably a few more but I trust I've made my point. Everything Flash does, one can make a native binary that does it better. The only disadvantage is if you're on Windows, really, because it's just insecure, whether by design, implementation or user practices.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

Everything Flash does, one can make a native binary that does it better.

except you know, getting views

you can't argue that.

[Skofo]

Who cares about getting views? Idealism is the new black.

[nqe]

Every additional layer of complexity from the OS up to the ActionScript interpreter in Flash introduces another system full of exploitable potential. The more middlemen the less security. If the application runs natively, you only have to worry about OS security.

Excuse my ignorance, but if you have more systems, wouldn't you have more layers of security? That is, in the case of flash, first you need to figure out how to bypass flash security, and THEN you need to bypass OS security? Given this is probably not always the case, but it seems more logical?

Everything Flash does, one can make a native binary that does it better. The only disadvantage is if you're on Windows, really, because it's just insecure, whether by design, implementation or user practices.

Native binaries imply native compilation, making accessibility not so simple.

[Matt Thorson]

Well maybe tomorrow when everyone switches to Linux all the Flash game portals will realize how stupid Flash is and switch to providing downloads to binaries.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Flash is the ideal system, but we don't live in a perfect world.

[dariusk]

FYI, I just posted part 1 of an Akihabara tutorial.

http://bostongamejams.com/akihabara-tutorials/akihabara-1/

I'll be updating it in this TIGForum thread too:

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=12514.0

[BorisTheBrave]

Every additional layer of complexity from the OS up to the ActionScript interpreter in Flash introduces another system full of exploitable potential. The more middlemen the less security. If the application runs natively, you only have to worry about OS security.

Excuse my ignorance, but if you have more systems, wouldn't you have more layers of security? That is, in the case of flash, first you need to figure out how to bypass flash security, and THEN you need to bypass OS security? Given this is probably not always the case, but it seems more logical?

Agree. Would we abandon the separation between OS kernel and user level apps because more layers of security are bad? I'm getting the impression Core Xii isn't even thinking through some of these statements in a manic bid to answer everyone who disagrees.

Other gems from this thread include:

That's a user error, you're not supposed to be logged in as an administrator all the time. You play the games as a regular user and no permanent harm can come to you. Operating systems come with security, you just have to know how to use them properly.

As such, I'm assuming your point is purely theoretical? That in an ideal world users wouldn't run everything as admin?

Yeah, pretty much. I only run one admin account myself. Terrible habit, really. Though Windows at installation does offer you like 5 fields to insert new account names into.

Well, firstly, Flash is not an open standard. That's a huge thing right there.

I guess it is sort of open then, but that's not good enough for me. A specification is either 100% open or it's not to be called such. No half-assing open standards!

I'm quite convinced we'll develop a fully cross-platform application format before a universal browser. It'll probably be self-compiling, polymorphic or something.

Basically, though you make some interesting points, and your attitude has only the faintest sniff of troll, such a rate of fail makes it hard for me to take you, or this thread, seriously any more.

[Core Xii]

Excuse my ignorance, but if you have more systems, wouldn't you have more layers of security? That is, in the case of flash, first you need to figure out how to bypass flash security, and THEN you need to bypass OS security? Given this is probably not always the case, but it seems more logical?

I see what you're getting at but I don't think it works that way. Someone who understands the inner workings of Flash surely is competent with browsers as well as operating systems. After all, their ultimate goal is to steal your processing power.

I'd think of it like a tower. You can add floor after floor of security and for someone taking the stairs it's harder and harder to get in (also for legitimate users, since they have more steps to climb); But the higher you build it, the easier it is to knock the whole thing down at any given point.

Would we abandon the separation between OS kernel and user level apps because more layers of security are bad?

A layer by definition is something between. I don't see programs running on hardware directly so the OS is not a layer, and therefore my argument against layered complexity does not extend there. Of course if you have any ideas how one might approach such a feat, I'd be glad to hear about them.

Basically, though you make some interesting points, and your attitude has only the faintest sniff of troll, such a rate of fail makes it hard for me to take you, or this thread, seriously any more.

You find my points interesting and clearly not provocative yet you still refer to them as "gems" and "fail" and cannot take me seriously? I am rather confused here. Do you disagree with them? Is it your opinion that we should be logged in as administrators at all times, or that Flash is an open standard when it factually is not?

[BlueSweatshirt]

Imo, we should all stop attacking each other. It's uninviting.

On the subject of HTML5 games, does anyone think they will pick up over time? Eventually replace Flash, maybe?(if so, why~)

I don't see HTML5 games being as cross platform as they by definition would be. Although they would run, how well they run will be much different on different devices, such as handhelds. Especially when you have devices that have different input methods, IE touch-screens.
I guess it all depends on the caliber of the library/framework someone makes to develop HTML5 games.

[PGGB]

Imo, we should all stop attacking each other. It's uninviting.

On the subject of HTML5 games, does anyone think they will pick up over time? Eventually replace Flash, maybe?(if so, why~)

Because HTML5 will at least soon be as ubiquitous as Flash. It won't matter to the player wether a game was done in HTML5 or Flash as long as he can run it without a hassle.

I don't see HTML5 games being as cross platform as they by definition would be. Although they would run, how well they run will be much different on different devices, such as handhelds. Especially when you have devices that have different input methods, IE touch-screens.
I guess it all depends on the caliber of the library/framework someone makes to develop HTML5 games.

Flash as an alternative does not work on handhelds either (at least not for games) and the Flash performance is bad on Linux and Mac. Not much HTML5 has to catch up to. Frameworks will be made and HTML5 will at least be as good as Flash, if not better.

[raiten]

Flash as an alternative does not work on handhelds either (at least not for games) and the Flash performance is bad on Linux and Mac. Not much HTML5 has to catch up to. Frameworks will be made and HTML5 will at least be as good as Flash, if not better.

HTML5 probably has a lot more performance issues than flash on handhelds -



.

HTML5 is only catching up to where the web already is today thanks to the flash player, yet it won't be somewhat finalized until 2012 (and supposedly 100% finished by 2022?). And they started working on html5 when? Back in 2004. So what happens if Flash introduces some new feature the web would rather not be without? People who don't want to use flash will have to wait 8-10 years before the html standards can catch up and do the same thing, only with slightly worse performance. As long as the flash player plugin is as ubiquitous as it is today or thereabout, I don't think flash games run any risk of being replaced by html games. Unless the iPads and iPhones end up taking over the entire handheld market...

[PGGB]

HTML5 probably has a lot more performance issues than flash on handhelds -



.

HTML5 is only catching up to where the web already is today thanks to the flash player, yet it won't be somewhat finalized until 2012 (and supposedly 100% finished by 2022?). And they started working on html5 when? Back in 2004. So what happens if Flash introduces some new feature the web would rather not be without? People who don't want to use flash will have to wait 8-10 years before the html standards can catch up and do the same thing, only with slightly worse performance. As long as the flash player plugin is as ubiquitous as it is today or thereabout, I don't think flash games run any risk of being replaced by html games. Unless the iPads and iPhones end up taking over the entire handheld market...

How many Flash games do you have for handhelds? Right almost none since handhelds use a toned down version with many features disabled. Not to mention that the performance would be nowhere near a usable level for games.

And while the HTML5 standard may very well take some time until done, it is the implementations that matter. The Javascript performance of browsers increases rapidly today, I don't see why HTML5 should be worse in performance. Flash isn't used so much because of the awesome performance. Again on Windows it is ok, but on Linux and Mac the performance is just plain terrible. Honestly I have more faith in the Mozilla or Google team to whip up a good cross-platform implementation than Adobe.

[raiten]

How many Flash games do you have for handhelds? Right almost none since handhelds use a toned down version with many features disabled. Not to mention that the performance would be nowhere near a usable level for games.

The point is, HTML5 seems to perform worse than Flash on handhelds, so I think it's weird to use Flash's poor performance as an argument why HTML5 games will replace Flash games (which is what I read your post as). From what I've heard/seen, it looks like the Android will be able to play Flash games OK (but maybe not the most CPU demanding ones? Just conjecture though, but still there's loads of simple yet fun flash games that can be played without any problems on low-level netbooks).

[PGGB]

The point is, HTML5 seems to perform worse than Flash on handhelds, so I think it's weird to use Flash's poor performance as an argument why HTML5 games will replace Flash games (which is what I read your post as). From what I've heard/seen, it looks like the Android will be able to play Flash games OK (but maybe not the most CPU demanding ones? Just conjecture though, but still there's loads of simple yet fun flash games that can be played without any problems on low-level netbooks).

Oh that seems to be a misunderstanding.
I think handhelds are entirely out of the calculation since neither Flash nor HTML5 games work well for them right now.
I'm mainly bummed by the performance of Flash on Mac and Linux. Cross-platform support is a big pro for Flash but I think HTML5 can be a lot better in this regard.

[bateleur]

And while the HTML5 standard may very well take some time until done, it is the implementations that matter.

Very true. Great news for anyone who likes H.264!

[Zaphos]

I thought H.264 doesn't work with firefox though?  Because of patents & such.

Also Flash 10.1 supposedly improves performance for macs as well as for phones.  There's a beta out ... haven't tried it out though.  I saw some video of it running on phones that looked decent -- so if that works out, Flash games should work ok on handhelds ... next month?

Security-wise, things like flashblock seem helpful ... for html5/javascript I guess there's noscript, although it's a bit of a pain.

[bateleur]

I thought H.264 doesn't work with firefox though?  Because of patents & such.

Sorry, I allowed dark, grumpy humour to obscure my point.

...which is that HTML 5 is going to be a huge mess for the foreseeable future since it is a "standard" which is failing to actually standardize stuff. Microsoft and their gang are pushing H.264 very hard over (in particular) Ogg Theora. Attempting to make an HTML5-based site which Just Works (TM) for all users is going to be nightmarishly hard until this is sorted out.

Flash will continue to be the deployment technology of choice for interactive stuff until HTML-5 gets over this problem.

[dariusk]

I don't see HTML5 games being as cross platform as they by definition would be. Although they would run, how well they run will be much different on different devices, such as handhelds. Especially when you have devices that have different input methods, IE touch-screens.
I guess it all depends on the caliber of the library/framework someone makes to develop HTML5 games.

Yeah, one of the things that I would like to do is extend Akihabara in that regard. Right now it kinda-sorta runs the same on iPhone/iPad/Pre/Droid but the main problem is the different inputs. Fortunately it's not too hard to detect what device you're on and reconfigure the inputs accordingly. What it WILL mean is that there would need to be some interesting feats of game design to make a game work well using both touch inputs and keyboard/mouse.

I see that this thread has turned into a giant debate about whether HTML5 will overtake Flash, blah blah blah. I don't actually care. What I do care about is showing that HTML5 is a valid way to make a game. Not make MONEY off a game, that's a different issue.

One of the nice things that does make Akihabara a lot more cross-browser and platform compatible than a lot of HTML5 stuff out there is that it's only using a very very small subset of HTML5 features which are supported by many browsers already. Granted, there's a lot more cool stuff that it could do if it extended its use of HTML5 features (for example: audio) but for now it relies on the most compatible subset, which I think is a smart decision.

[george]

I was a little surprised at the lack of audio. Does anyone know already what browsers don't support HTML5 audio?