next »

[Bones]

There isn't a GameMaker or Construct like program out there that makes 3D games.

*cough*
Certainly not. 

[Jason Bakker]

3D programming is indeed much harder than 2D.

3D programming is harder in that it's more difficult to get set up, depending on exported formats from Max/Maya/etc and whatever SDK you're using (DX, etc)...

Actual 3D programming logic is often just adding an axis to the logic (x/y/z instead of x/y), which isn't alllll that much harder.

Just wanted to clarify just so no budding programmers reading this thread get overly scared of 3D programming

[ChevyRay]

Actual 3D programming logic is often just adding an axis to the logic (x/y/z instead of x/y), which isn't alllll that much harder.

Yes it is! I've tried it, it's WAY harder. Having to deal with the 3rd axis makes it much more difficult for me to envision and debug things. Probably not for all people, but anybody that says it's not hard is merely good at it because it's confusing as hell. They should BE scared of it, because it's a crazy task, and rendering can get even more confusing

EDIT: fun still, i managed to get a cool platformer engine working with a hopping/flipping character who could wall jump and stuff. It was exhausting, but I was quite proud!

[Jason Bakker]

Hehe, I guess it is a bit of a mindflip when you're getting started, trying to envision where things are in 3D and stuff. I think rotations are what people tend to really have trouble with... That said, I think learning 3D programming would probably improve someone's 2D programming ability. It's a useful skill to have 

Anyways, back on topic, I think the iconographic nature of pixel art is why it's chosen a lot as by indie devs as well. With their large budgets, AAA games they have the time, budget and manpower express what they want to in high fidelity, but even after millions of dollars are spent that still often falls flat.

Also, the more specific and finite you make something, the less range it has. can be used to express a larger range of emotions than something more detailed, and this holds true even from going from pixelly stuff to more drawn stuff.

[Xion]

err, also:

tbh I've been wanting to try making some more analog game art recently so that I can get better at higher resolution work and begin moving my ideas and games away - no, not away, outward from pixel art and broaden my horizons.

But I can't find a non-pixel-focused raster program with the ease of use I want regarding animation, and I'm not a big fan of vectors. (suggestions?)

I'm not going to say PA is the best for making games because I think that's nonsense and also bullshit. I would truly and really love to see more games with nice high res 2d graphics, like Odin Sphere, the upcoming Magi sequel, and that game with the fox that was frontpaged a bit ago, and that other game arted by the Jazz Jackrabbit dude.

But as has been said and resaid this kind of stuff is harder and more time consuming to pull off right. Flaws which might be easily overlooked were they on a pixel level become glaringly obvious when blown up and rendered in detail. Awkward walkcycles, feet sliding along the ground at a different rate than the character is actually moving, sudden jerking transitions between two character states. Of course it's still there if it's in pixels but it's downplayed.

See this stuff is hard as fuck and time consuming for even a pro to pull off much less maybe a one or two or four indies without crazy art expertise or the resources to hire someone with crazy art expertise or the time or will to learn how to be a crazy art expert. You know. People who just want to make a game.

bah I'm sleepy.

[ChevyRay]

I'm not going to say PA is the best for making games because I think that's nonsense and also bullshit. I would truly and really love to see more games with nice high res 2d graphics, like Odin Sphere, the upcoming Magi sequel, and that game with the fox that was frontpaged a bit ago, and that other game arted by the Jazz Jackrabbit dude.

Totally agree with this! It's lots of work, but when done nicely, so worth it. Braid is also worth mentioning. (Braid-haters BEGONE, this is not about you!)

[Brocklesocks]

It sounds like most of the reasons people are using pixel art is to overcome limitations. Technical, creative and advance-avoiding limitations... at least, for the most part. I'm obviously giving some of the games that were used as examples a free pass as examples of awesome work

I've been a lurker of the forums for a while, but only recently really started participating in the forums. I've enjoyed tons of your games and was super impressed with what was able to be done with just simple, blockhead characters. But there's just so much of it, you know? Just sayin'.

[ChevyRay]

It sounds like most of the reasons people are using pixel art is to overcome limitations. Technical, creative and advance-avoiding limitations... at least, for the most part. I'm obviously giving some of the games that were used as examples a free pass as examples of awesome work

Well of course, for some developers it's a limitations thing. Why is that a problem at all? They're people with not a lot of free time. Students at school. Kids in the computer lab. Parents, or folks with hard-working jobs. If they didn't do that, SO MANY awesome games by folks like Derek, Matt Thorson, Terry, Increpare, Cactus, etc. etc. ETC. wouldn't exist! Instead, they'd be all slaving away at hi-res or 3D animations, probably never finishing all these great game ideas they have.

When you make games on your own, you sometimes have to make some sacrifices, otherwise you're doomed to just never finish anything, and end up like this. But while people are making these sacrifices, they're giving themselves the freedom to shine in other areas.

Is that so hard to grasp, really? Because, as I've stated in every clone of this topic we have here, it seems so obvious to me.


EDIT:

But there's just so much of it, you know? Just sayin'.

Not nearly as much as there is vector art Flash Games. Or hi-res 3D Xbox 360 games. We're a minority here, man. If we just did it like everybody else does, TIGSource wouldn't be nearly as special a place as it is to me, or many other folks here. And wouldn't produce nearly as many of the masterpieces that come out of it.

[___]

Hey guys why does everyone use pixel art?  It seems like everyone is just a pussy because when I did pixel art, it was so easy.  I mean all I did was stare at my computer and pixel art just made itself because its so easy to use.  Why not doing something creative?  And by creative I mean excluding an entire genre because a lot of developers like it, and also because I said so.  You shouldn't be allowed to make something similar to other people unless it's different from pixel art.  In fact, make anything but pixel art, because that is more creative and better than pixel art for completely subjective reasons.

You guys are just avoiding doing *real* art because you can't do it, admit it.

[ChevyRay]

You should just post that as a topic once a week, Xerus then copy/paste the results from this topic and lock it. Save everybody the effort. :D

[aeiowu]

Hey guys why does everyone use pixel art?  It seems like everyone is just a pussy because when I did pixel art, it was so easy.  I mean all I did was stare at my computer and pixel art just made itself because its so easy to use.  Why not doing something creative?  And by creative I mean excluding an entire genre because a lot of developers like it, and also because I said so.  You shouldn't be allowed to make something similar to other people unless it's different from pixel art.  In fact, make anything but pixel art, because that is more creative and better than pixel art for completely subjective reasons.

You guys are just avoiding doing *real* art because you can't do it, admit it.

My hero.
 
 
 

[ChevyRay]

Hahaha

[Brocklesocks]

I'm just asking questions, trying to understand. No need to be rude.

Edited to water down the language.

[ChevyRay]

Sorry dude, Xerus didn't mean to be insulting. You realize that these posts often just end up being places for folks who don't like pixel art to gang up together in insults and ignorance of something that he treasures as an artform, right? It wasn't a personal shot at you, even if it seemed like it. But I don't think it's fair that the folks who like pixel art and pixelling have to be constantly defending themselves, while other art forms are just being blindly accepted for no better reason than their popularity.

I did just write you an explanation, though, that I hope answered some of your questions. Many other folks did address it as well, and your other questions have all been answered multiple times, which was why the joke posts started to chime-in naturally.

Sometimes we regulars here forget that... well, that other people aren't regulars so sorry if you felt insulted

[Robotwo]

traditional 32x32 tile sizes

and here I thought 8x8 was the traditional tile size 

[ChevyRay]

Haha, I thought that 16x16 was! At least, since Cave Story.

[Brocklesocks]

No problem. I've just been a graphic designer and illustrator for a long time, so I'm really just trying to understand why some of the smaller, indie communities stick to the pixel art style. I guess I've learned a few things from the responses, yeah. For example, the fact that "pixel art" term covers more than just the characters types shown here: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=7086.0 . I'm really not criticizing the choice to use this style of art - I'll probably even give it a try eventually myself. I'm no hater! More than anything, I was just trying to initiate a positive discussion 

Anyways, on another note -- anybody who feels limited by the cost of Photoshop should try Gimp (http://www.gimp.org/). It's free and very comparable to it! Tons of tutorial videos are on Youtube. I'm even willing to share some of my Photoshop knowledge to anyone that would like help.

[Robotwo]

try Gimp

I've had a go at Gimp ,
from what I've gathered it doesn't allow for bit-limited palettes or tile-based works (not optimal to my standards) ...
And I still can't make purdy lines with a mouse ...
I can draw traditional art aswell , just not on a PC 

[aeiowu]

No problem. I've just been a graphic designer and illustrator for a long time, so I'm really just trying to understand why some of the smaller, indie communities stick to the pixel art style. I guess I've learned a few things from the responses, yeah. For example, the fact that "pixel art" term covers more than just the characters types shown here: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=7086.0 . I'm really not criticizing the choice to use this style of art - I'll probably even give it a try eventually myself. I'm no hater! More than anything, I was just trying to initiate a positive discussion 

Anyways, on another note -- anybody who feels limited by the cost of Photoshop should try Gimp (http://www.gimp.org/). It's free and very comparable to it! Tons of tutorial videos are on Youtube. I'm even willing to share some of my Photoshop knowledge to anyone that would like help.

I was soured on your OP when you mentioned pixel art being a copout or as you put it "too easy" and "unsatisfying" _especially_ now that you mention you've never even tried it. Is this undetailed? http://hello.eboy.com/eboy/wp-content/uploads/2006/02/EBY_Superbroncobattle_08t.png

Surely as a graphic designer/illustrator you understand how easy it is to create vector art, right? That shit is simple and ultimately unsatisfying and _so_ many posters use it. I guess I just wanted to try something more interesting and I don't get why more graphic designers don't try something like pixel art in their posters/designs.

Perhaps when considered from this angle you can see how it would piss people off, decrying an entire medium and all.

That all said, if you had just omitted your blanketed judgement from the OP, you would have saved this whole thread a lot of grief in my opinion. I think the conceit of asking why people choose a certain art style is interesting and a nice topic.

[ChevyRay]

GIMP stopped working on my computer

But still, animating a high res character in photoshop? Owch. (EDIT: not BAD, just difficult as hell )

I was just trying to initiate a positive discussion

I realize you were, but like I said, there are lots of people who are purely ignorant of the fact that pixel-art is an art style with as much potential as any other, and it's about execution of style, not choice, that matters in the long run. And these topics give them an excuse to come feed like pigs off eachother, so Xerus's post was a summation/mockery of several of those type of people, exposing the reality of their thoughts in hopes of preventing more of such responses from emerging.

I'm even willing to share some of my Photoshop knowledge to anyone that would like help.

Actually, you'd be interested in learning that Photoshop is currently the Tool of Choice for 2d graphics artists on these forums, according to a recent poll I started in the General forums, with GIMP in 2nd place. So pixel art may not be as popular as it appears, it's just that more games with lo-res pixel art get finished, because they offer the creators more time to work on their game's coding and design. We were just talking about starting up a Photoshop tips & tricks topic, care to take the initiative? I guarantee it'll go over well

For example, the fact that "pixel art" term covers more than just the characters types shown here: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=7086.0 .

That's really all you thought pixel art extended to? Man, you're missing out! Hanging around a little longer and you'll find out about some pixel art masterpieces, such as Cave Story, Spelunky, Legend of Iya, Hero: CF, Saturated Dreamers, and more. Like any art form, it becomes much more appealing when you're exposed to it more, play more games that contain it, and even try it out yourself. Even lo-fi stuff like Cactus or Terry's artwork becomes beautiful to one's eye when you're doing it right, because you know that they're pouring as much heart and attention into it as any painter or 3D modeller would into their own work.

Also, if you're wanting to start a positive discussion and not an argument, don't start it like this:

I know I'm probably going to get hailed upon by turds, but I feel like a lot of the artists could do something really creative and awesome. Instead, there is an endless amount of pixel art-styled games.

See that "Instead"? That automatically says "I'm challenging you!" rather than "I want to know", and in that sentence, you already have insinuated (whether you meant to or not) that pixel art is not creative and awesome. This sentence does not tell me that you wanted to learn more about pixel art, but rather that you thought it wasn't as good and wanted to persuade people into "seeing" things your way.

If you're more positive in your wording, you'll definitely get a more positive response