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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralRIP Tale of Tales?
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Author Topic: RIP Tale of Tales?  (Read 11117 times)
gimymblert
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« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2015, 08:09:58 PM »

im sorry i wasn't aware this was a my little pony OC thread

You fool! this is older than brony shit
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« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2015, 10:09:56 PM »

Tale of Tales made bad games and were pretty much the embodiment of pretentious internet artiste mindset. This whole "nobody gets our art so we're calling it quits" thing is just a standard continuation of that.
From their blog post it sounds more like, "Nobody buys our games because they just don't get us." When it's actually the games are not very good (I enjoy them but they're bad any which way you cut it) and they're awful at marketing and seem to have refused to take any responsibility and just shift blame to their consumers.
If you read their Sunset devlog here on TIG it's just endless whining about how gamer aren't going to "get it" and they're gonna fail. That sort of mindset doesn't inspire confidence in a consumer about your product and is ultimately a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even if they were trying to act humble by saying those things it came across as greater than thou.
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« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2015, 02:58:29 AM »

I think Gone Home is an amazing work, and while many people may be fine spending $20 on it, there's going to be a definite point where lowering the price is going to get you a higher net profit.  We're literally talking about art, where "adding" to it isn't some fungible increase in value.  The price is the factor that can most readily be changed.  That's what I'm discussing.

And that's the misconception I'm talking about Smiley. Price has a surprisingly low effect on sales, except if you go over/under certain established breakpoints ($20 seems to be the accepted high end for an indie game, $30 already raises eyebrows). Or more accurately -- the boost from lowering the price rarely outweighs the loss in revenue per copy.

When I was just starting out, I did several experiments with this. Including the big no-no of making my game more expensive a few months after the launch (while also breaking the magical barrier of $20). The outcome? Increase in revenue close to increase in price. I also tried cutting prices in half for older or less successful games only to find out than they still aren't selling (but now I earn even less per copy).

My experience is mirrored by quite a lot of other indies, because hey, we all didn't know what we were doing at first. Very few of us came from business backgrounds, so we had to learn through mistakes. Now the consensus is to ask for as much as you can in your given genre/segment, make sure the game is "worth" that price, and leave discounting for sales and bundles.


This is doubly true for niche/art games. Let's say you have a mass-market product like Angry Birds, where pretty much anyone on the planet is a potential player. Your main goal becomes to make sure the game reaches as many of those people as possible and is super accessible at the same time. In this case, the price may be one of the factors, as you're essentially looking at an infinite market pool. It's why f2p is so successful in the casual segment.

With something like Tale of Tales stuff, you know from the get go that your audience is quite limited, but also more informed and dedicated. Your goal is to provide a worthwhile experience for those people and make sure they've heard about it in the first place. Price is a secondary factor in this case, but you need it relatively high to stay afloat despite your limited player pool. It's even a good idea to have a way for fans to support you with more money if they wish to. ToT did it through Kickstarter. We personally implemented an optional $5 "tip" on top of the game's $20 price tag. $5 is more than some entire games cost, yet around 25% of our direct sales audience opts for it.


Dunno what else I could add. Feel free to not believe it and even prove me wrong with your own releases, but also consider that having a lower price is not something the game selling crowd haven't thought of or experimented with before. Wink
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 03:59:01 AM by TeeGee » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2015, 03:19:33 AM »

super insightful post Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2015, 03:52:49 AM »

Quote
When I first decided to go to work for a company, I wanted to create things, so I wasn't looking for a company to work for — I was looking for a company to sponsor me so that I could create the things that I wanted. Because as an artist, that's really what you want — you want someone to sponsor you as an artist.

Shigeru Miyamoto
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« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2015, 03:59:00 AM »

(the long post three messages above about selling games and stuff.)

Wait, so the moral of the story is to be greedy within certain boundaries? What a world.  Huh?
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« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2015, 04:02:31 AM »

Only if you perceive the necessity to eat and pay your bills as greed Wink.
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« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2015, 04:07:11 AM »

(the long post three messages above about selling games and stuff.)

Wait, so the moral of the story is to be greedy within certain boundaries? What a world.  Huh?

capitalism in action mah brah
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« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2015, 04:13:50 AM »

I find it surprisingly fair in case of games though. Money is a social construct with no inherent value and so is entertainment. Using one useless-but-valued thing to pay for another useless-but-valued thing seems okay to me.

 Gentleman Hand Money Right
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Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2015, 04:35:30 AM »

Cant argue against that logic!  Hand Money Left Grin Hand Money Right
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« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2015, 04:59:23 AM »

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the whole move character through space is the main repellant for "outsider" of game consumtion, it demand a certain kind of basics literacy in reading an interactive 3D space than most people who don't play game don't have.

but didn't they try to specifically address this issue in their games? iirc the movement and controls in the path and fatale were specifically designed to be accessible for people not used to 3d game controls.
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« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2015, 05:18:08 AM »

Fatale? Maaaaybeee. The Path? Nope! Its controls were clunky even for 3D game standards. I tried to show it to my mum, and it ended up with me having to play the whole thing while she was watching. Then she didn't understand why it isn't simply an animated short -- so much for interactivity.

It's a real issue, but somehow I think the gaming illiterate generation will simply die out before we solve it.
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Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2015, 05:19:48 AM »

From what I've seen of their games before, I've never been too impressed. I also found some of their business practices to be rather strange (for example, asking for money to have the grandma die in The Graveyard) so I'm not surprised to hear that they're not doing well financially. I wish that everyone could make the games they want to make, but to acquire an income you need to create something people are willing to pay for.

The market is getting crowded at this point, and there are tons of promising titles even in the relatively unpopular genre of artgames. Back when I was in school, I had a feeling that gamedev would turn out to be a tough way to make a living and it's the reason why I decided to make a career in systems development instead. It's a boring job, but it's much more stable than trying to compete against an ever-expanding library of amazing video games.
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« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2015, 06:05:09 AM »

btw it's easy to forget how influential ToT really were. they pretty much created the template for socalled "walking simulators" with the graveyard and the path and also influenced the devs of amnesia, so indirectly had a hand in the creation of the let's player bait horror genre. they just never got as famous as the people who copied them.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 06:16:10 AM by Silbereisen » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2015, 06:16:53 AM »

...
they just never got as famous as the people who copied them.
How unfortunate.  Cool
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« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2015, 06:25:51 AM »

yeah, i think they really paved the way for many future art games that I feel follow on the same structural steps. I wouldnt call any of their work masterpieces, but much of the criticism towards their work feels overblown.

Ironically my gripe is when they put more gamey conventions into their games, like the flower collectathon on The Path. It really felt so out of the place and pointless.
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« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2015, 06:37:21 AM »

was excited about sunset, premise sounded fascinating, but then it looked weird and not that interesting
dont care about their previous games, from what i watched they can be easily deconstructed in their message and there is nothing insightful or useful
what left is muddy visuals and bad controls, i can always play tomb raider if i want to see women die and be miserable
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« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2015, 06:44:56 AM »

Im gonna call BS on anyone who thinks their games have bad controls and yet call RE4 and Yakuza Dead Souls as good controls. Not addressing this specifically to anybody, but if you fall into such category, the bs man, bee ess!
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« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2015, 06:58:58 AM »

thats the worst argument
you cant kill a person and then say "but Genghis Khan killed millions, im not a bad person"
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« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2015, 07:02:30 AM »

Any control scheme is good if the game is designed around it. Period.

This is why you should start by defining the player controls before anything else in a game.
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