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[1982]

You're just not right.
The games are kind of packages of experience. Without music, the experience is totally different. The game would have totally different feel, the same with movies. The Good, the Bad & the Ugly final three-way duel would feel totally different without Moricone's awesome music. It would be MUCH less epic. And that's it. The creators wanted it to feel like that. If you play any game and just turn off the music you're getting completely different experience than the creators anticipated.

Well, film you are referring to is not serious film. Nor it is immersive in a way game can be. It is laid back. It's music has substance there and it is all around functional artistic package. It is like Contra the game. Great overall package offering nice entertainment.

Immersion differentiates a lot between film and games. Films can never achieve what games potentially can, so all films become more or less just "laid back".

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

"By serious games I mean bigger, serious, story drawn, and immersive games like Deus Ex, Half Life, System Shock"

those are neither serious games nor story-driven games, they're fps games

all the games i've played that have attempted a serious storyline have had good music -- final fantasy tactics, kartia, xenogears, actraiser, soul blazer, the front mission series, tactics ogre, the shin megami tensei and persona games, etc. -- i can't say i've ever played a story-driven game without background music (at least not without any sort of ambient background music whatsoever), i think it'd feel weird, but it might work

i think music adds a lot to a story though. think of how in ff6 each character had their own theme, which would play when they're the center of the scene. they can also establish the mood of a scene; kartia used very mysterious / uneasy ambient music during its story scenes (as opposed to its robust melodies during its battles -- the game even had two different musicians, one for each of those)

but that's not to say complete silence is useless either, i think it can highlight certain scenes or areas, since it's different from having music. i wouldn't try to make the whole game like that, but particular areas or scenes having silence can work as a foil to the rest

i think you'd be sacrificing a lot to not use music in any game. besides, if a player really wanted to play the game without music, most games have an option to turn the music off

[1982]

"By serious games I mean bigger, serious, story drawn, and immersive games like Deus Ex, Half Life, System Shock"

Well it is not coincidence that only FP-games have true ability to be serious and immersive, compared to other viewpoint games. Nowadays I can't find any non-FP to be serious. They can be helluva good thou, but not serious or immersive. So music usage there is quite preferable.
 

[rivon]

Well, 1982, what is serious movie then? And what is serious game?

[1982]

Well, 1982, what is serious movie then? And what is serious game?

Wrestler is one good example of serious film, that went really deep at least into me.
Games, well quite many... Penumbra Overture I enjoyed a lot while back. Also first Alien vs. Predator is awesome. Deus Ex... There are many titles yes.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think you're using a specialized usage of the word 'serious' which not everyone else is familiar with. to me, a serious movie is any movie that is not a comedy or action movie, and tends to move more slowly and you have to pay attention to the dialogue. (also, horror movies can be serious but usually aren't)

so to me, a serious game is similar: a game that is slower paced than most games, and isn't frivolous or comedic. so for instance i'd call front mission serious but not earthbound, because earthbound relied more on comedy (even if it had serious parts), and front mission dealt with more serious topics like war  and political intrigue and human experimentation

saying that viewpoint affects a game's seriousness doesn't make any sense to me; camera angle can effect the immersion, but not the seriousness of the story. i think that if you meant 'only fps games can be serious' or 'by serious games i mean fps games' you should have mentioned that in the first post for clarification reasons

[jeffrobot]

I think there is some confusion as to what 1982 is saying. He's not saying REMOVE ALL MUSIC FROM IMMERSIVE GAMES. He has said himself that he loves music and appreciates the effect it can have on people.

I believe he's saying that background music that has no source in game hurts immersion, because it is not a part of the game world and reminds players that they are playing a game. It's just like a big fat "Push A Button To Continue" message popping up. ANYTHING that isn't a part of the game world will remind players they are playing a game, and thus hurt immersion.

He says that clever use of source music, which is music that IS a part of the game because it has a source in the game world, should replace the use of bgm. i.e., instead of frollicky bgm on a beach, you hear it playing from a radio somewhere nearby. I'm not sure if I've played a game with only source music, but I think his point makes sense, at least logically.

A tiny anecdote from Amnesia: The Dark Descent: I just spent the last couple hours making my way through this terrifying castle, with absolutely no relief. The game never makes you feel safe, you're almost always scared of every corner and every window and every hallway. After an extremely intense section, I go through a door into a new area. This place is well-lit, beautiful, there's a fountain... and for once in the entire game, peaceful, tranquil, lovely background music starts to play. Instantly, I understand that this is an area that is actually safe. I can relax. The designer is telling me this.

I appreciated the designers giving me that space to relax, but you can see that the use of music definitely was kind of a meta-approach to sending me the "all-clear" message. It definitely put things in the context of, "I'm safe here, those are the rules (of the game)".

And a similar thing happened when I left that space, and the music went away, to be replaced with the creepy shit that is standard for the rest of the game - "welp, things are dangerous again." Could they have sent me these messages in a way that didn't force me to remember I'm playing a game with rules? 1982 would probably say yes, and I tend to agree with him.

EDIT: spelling

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

it doesn't sound like that was what he was saying, because immersion and serious are two totally different concepts, but if that's what he meant, fallout 3 did something like that -- you could listen to music on the character's radio (there were different radio stations), the game itself didn't have music other than that. i think grand theft auto does something similar. it'd be pretty easy to contrive a source for the game's music, so it's strange how more games don't contrive one

but i never really had a problem with source-less music breaking immersion for me, i think they add to immersion (since the music can create the mood). serious movies often have source-less music too. so i still think it's an interesting thing, but that saying that serious games/movies should absolutely not have source-less music is going too far

[rivon]

but i never really had a problem with source-less music breaking immersion for me, i think they add to immersion (since the music can create the mood). serious movies often have source-less music too. so i still think it's an interesting thing, but that saying that serious games/movies should absolutely not have source-less music is going too far

This.

[1982]

jeffrobot said it exactly how I meant it, thanks for putting it in some understandable context.

fallout 3 did something like that -- you could listen to music on the character's radio (there were different radio stations), the game itself didn't have music other than that. i think grand theft auto does something similar.

Yes these are good examples of source music usage.

[Zaphos]

Someone should make a game about a character who hears music that is not there (this is a real disorder people have, iirc).  Could be interesting to use scene-inappropriate music to convey the person's mental state.

[jeffrobot]

Cheers, 1982. Glad I could help. I think it's an important thing you've pointed out. I definitely agree.

I'm thinking more about Amnesia, and I think source music really could have added a lot to the game. Instead of having safe-sounding music cue as I entered the threat-free room... maybe they could have used environment art to make the room look impenetrable or something.

[:^)]

I disagree with everyone.

[JOBA]

I thought theres place for its own discussion, so I don't have to side rail other topics with this thought.

I'm am completely sure that serious gaming doesn't require musical score or background music at all, and its usage makes game actually worse. By serious games I mean bigger, serious, story drawn, and immersive games like Deus Ex, Half Life, System Shock, and so on. Games that try to represent as believable world and environment to player as possible - immersion. 

Why not music then? - It has nothing to do with believable world. It kills the immersion. In real world, you usually don't hear music in your head only. Unless you are using headphones. But then again either you select the music by yourself or it is completely random and has probably nothing to do with actual living environment. 

However you can hear music in the environment through radio inside shops or waiting rooms, in elevators, in concerts etc. That is called source music. Music usage in serious gaming should be always about source music only. It adds up the immersion a lot, and does not kill it like "abstract" background music.

Why is background music used? -Because with music it is easy to control players emotions and expectations. Set up the mood, give subtle or not subtle hints about something. Convey desired emotion. Only too bad that in real immersive world it doesn't work like this. And nor should it in serious games either. All the narration should be told via elements inside the actual game world. Music usage is cheap, and is there only to try to force you to feel certain way like designers intend, just because they are not capable of doing it through more important and better means. But with clever source music usage, you can make good narratives without killing immersion!

I personally always mute the music off in all serious games I play. It works great.

All this same applies same way into serious films as well. Take a look at Wrestler and you know what I mean. It has really little music and it is mostly source music when used. Here is one scene:

Serious gaming? What is this, i don't even. That sounds like an oxymoron really.
Deus ex and system shock being immersive and serious, oh, haha, no.

Half-life might be considered somewhat realistic and thus immersive, althou even it benefits from ambient music and bombastic music in action scenes.

However, you have one fallacy there:
Immersion is not directly tied/equal to realism. E.g. if game isn't realistic, that doesn't automatically make it less immersive. On the other hand, more realism usually makes game more immersive. But not the other way around.

Much like having music doesn't make game less "serious" (whatever the hell that even means) or less immersive UNLESS you're specifically talking about ultra-realistic (virtual reality) type games and we're way off that at this point in time unfortunately.
E.g., having source-less music breaks realism not immersion.

I mean, there're some 2d / 2d platformers what i find much more immersive than most "supposedly realistic and immersive" first person games, thanks to superb art direction and excellent soundtrack.

Much like a good book is more immersive than most of the movies even if the medium is less "realistic" and tangible.

So unless you're making a super-realistic game, you're robbing your game of potential impact and immersion by leaving out superb moody (or whatever suits your game) soundtrack.

[jeffrobot]

I like you point about more realism =/= more immersion. That's an important thing to bear in mind. Still...

The argument is that if you can figure out a clever way to have the music you want come from a source inside the game, it better maintains the illusion of the game world AKA the immersion of the player (not always the same thing, but in this case I think it is).

Music is definitely an important part of any game, but if a player recognizes it for what it is, BACKGROUND MUSIC, then it can remind them they are playing a game. Real things don't have background music.

Of course, a game can have bgm and still be fan-fucking-tastic. Most games have bgm after all.

This is just another tool to have in your toolbox when designing a level. Instead of having creepy music just playing in the bg.... maybe put a radio in the room and have it play from  there.

I also think you're right that a game can be totally immersive and be unrealistic, as long as it stays consistent. But it's not just ultra-realistic VR games that could benefit from this. I'm playing through Amnesia right now, and I think it could have. I also think Deus Ex could potentially have as well, not sure why you scoffed at the idea. To be sure though, it definitely takes your game down a more realistic path, which might require more realistic overhauls to many other aspects of your game to maintain the same amount of realism.

[:^)]

I like you point about more realism =/= more immersion. That's an important thing to bear in mind. Still...

The argument is that if you can figure out a clever way to have the music you want come from a source inside the game, it better maintains the illusion of the game world AKA the immersion of the player (not always the same thing, but in this case I think it is).

I'm doing something with Deshori along these lines.

[jeffrobot]

go on... 

[noah!]

Okay, I get where you're going. I feel where you're jiving. And, with every modicum of earnestness I can muster within my being, I can honestly say...I dig. I dig.

The way I see it, yes, music enhances the experience. It punctuates poignant moments, especially in places where ambience alone simply couldn't convey those same connotations. But on the other hand, those feelings do seem rather artificial, don't they? Like the string quartet just shows up uninvited to our tender moments, under the guise of WE WANT YOU TO FEEL THIS WAY RIGHT NOW.

It's almost like the laugh track on a sitcom.

However, I'd disagree that non-diegetic music has absolutely no place in games, at least for now. I mean, aside from the throngs of people lining up in the thread to disagree with you, the fact still stands that culturally we have been desensitized to music. After years of growing up watching film and television, both of which heavily feature non-diegetic music, eventually we subconsciously connect the dots that (as creators and consumers) this is the right thing. Furthermore, we're so programmed that, when faced with an absence of music, we subconsciously feel that there is something lacking, which might detract from the experience more than it may enhance. So even though you might be onto something, maybe even something great, cultural programming prevents us from really connecting with your vision. We're just not ready yet.

But that's just coming from the perspective of American culture. (and likely by extension much of Western culture, but feel free to note any differences)

(p.s. also i'd really like to see someone go full-on and swing to the opposite spectrum, and make something absolutely drenched to the core in music—the videogame equivalent of opera, as it were)

[:^)]

Bioshock did music well. Right? or no? I didn't play the whole thing. I haven't bought it yet.

Old creaky records and crap. Radios. It kinda was just there. Making you feel all creeped and junk.

[AaronLee]

I've never tried muting music on games like HL2 or Bioshock, games I think fit the criteria of 'serious' immersive games. So I'm not sure I've got the breadth of the experience (music or no music.)

However; I fell this really boils down to real vs. hypereal. Games, no matter how immersive, still rely on hypereal, cinematic tropes such as setpeices, music and storyboards. I would argue people crave the hypereal, but that's only because we haven't had a game come along that IS a complete experience and is fully immersive.

It reminds me of the 'people don't want to read about mundane everyday sotries, they want zoom and bang etc.  with spaceships' argument as I feel it carries some of the same baggage.

To me, minimalism CAN be part of immersion when sought out in the first place. Some of the best story execution I've seen has taken a very unpredictable, minimal approach or told a very human story (or an extremely believable one.)