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[Chromanoid]

do not absolutely EVER start thinking about health reasons or illnesses in general as Paul Eres suggested... unless you want to fall in a sanity-destroying vicious circle, of course.
Hypochondriasis is a common side effect of procrastination and powerlessness, that post is probably the worst advice I have read on TIGs.

Yes, pathologising is the worst thing you can do in this matter. I know so many people who don't do extra work in their free time, they do what they enjoy. This is just natural. It is even the opposite, working 24/7 is unnatural and may lead to problems. Find a good balance, don't request too much from yourself. Sometimes your dreams will be too big, recognize it and don't think it's just because you don't work enough in your free time.

[darkhog]

Thanks to all of you. I've actually been able to overcome laziness, as you can see from my recent commits to Super Heli Land's Github.

I hope this thread will be useful for some other poor soul that has same problem  .

[s0]

the best way to stop procrastinating is to stop worrying about procrastination.

i've found that the worst thing you can do is guilt tripping yourself into working when you're just not in the mood for it. the work is likely going to be shit and you're going to burn out before you know it. part of working on your own is knowing when to take breaks.

[jamesprimate]

I hope this thread will be useful for some other poor soul that has same problem  .

currently going through my own bought of summer malaise, this was quite a good read. surprisingly more erudite than i had expected! its really interesting to hear other peoples methods. and of course it was useful, i was able to waste *at least* 7 minutes reading through it and the links, to say nothing of the time spent writing this irrelevant comment

an honest question for those who prefer a more structured schedule: do you still have periods of creativity followed by droughts/burnouts?

i have found in my own work cycle, its best not to force creativity but kind of tease it out when it is ready. the "burnout periods" seem to act as a way for the subconscious to gather new ideas, and worrying about burnout or interrupting the rebuild too early just seems to extend it. i know that kind of sounds like "artistic temperament" mumbo jumbo, but if i NEED to be working (say, deadline) there is always more mechanical stuff that can be done, even if I'm not "in the mood" per se.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

do not absolutely EVER start thinking about health reasons or illnesses in general as Paul Eres suggested... unless you want to fall in a sanity-destroying vicious circle, of course.
Hypochondriasis is a common side effect of procrastination and powerlessness, that post is probably the worst advice I have read on TIGs.

Yes, pathologising is the worst thing you can do in this matter. I know so many people who don't do extra work in their free time, they do what they enjoy. This is just natural. It is even the opposite, working 24/7 is unnatural and may lead to problems. Find a good balance, don't request too much from yourself. Sometimes your dreams will be too big, recognize it and don't think it's just because you don't work enough in your free time.

i'm not sure how anyone got pathologizing out of suggesting that someone eat better and exercise more to improve energy. most people in the developed world have terrible diets and are almost completely sedentary, which leads to low-level mental problems, and that fixing that by improving diet and activity level improves energy levels enormously. i believe that almost all "laziness" comes out of poor diet and a lack of exercise; i'm not talking about people imagining they have some rare thing like chronic fatigue syndrome, just extremely common problems which chances are the majority of this forum suffer from to some degree

if this isn't convincing to someone, just try it yourself; for a month, go for a run twice a week for half an hour or so, and avoid soda and junk food and highly processed foods, and see if your productivity improves or not by the end of the month. my guess would be that nine times out of ten it would improve beyond what someone expects or even beyond their hopes

in my own development history, i can trace a pretty clear link between when my game's development stalls and when i've been taking too long of a break from exercising. i know a lot of people are like 'who has time to exercise and eat right, who has time to be healthy' but it actually gives you more, not less, time, because you have more energy during the other hours of the day than you would have otherwise

so yeah, don't go imagining sicknesses that aren't there, that makes no sense, but if you drink 2 liters of soda a day and sit down at a desk using the internet or on a couch playing videogames for most of the day, and then wonder why you have no energy or motivation to do the things you want to do, i don't think it's far-fetched to say that your lifestyle may be causing the lack of energy

an honest question for those who prefer a more structured schedule: do you still have periods of creativity followed by droughts/burnouts?

i have found in my own work cycle, its best not to force creativity but kind of tease it out when it is ready. the "burnout periods" seem to act as a way for the subconscious to gather new ideas, and worrying about burnout or interrupting the rebuild too early just seems to extend it. i know that kind of sounds like "artistic temperament" mumbo jumbo, but if i NEED to be working (say, deadline) there is always more mechanical stuff that can be done, even if I'm not "in the mood" per se.

i don't have sharply defined periods of creativity and burnout, but i take days where i work on mundane, easy tasks, and days where i work on harder, more creative tasks, and this tends to go in a cycle. so i'd say i do have this but i don't actually notice it or take note of it very often, it's just a natural thing that happens

for me, extreme "burnout" is very rare, i think i learned years ago not to push myself to the point where i burn out. maybe it takes some time to learn, but eventually you learn how far you can go, and you try to go perhaps 80% or 90% as far as you know you can go, and then stop

i'd say if you ever find yourself in true burnout, where you are like dead tired and your brain is foggy for days and so on, that probably means you pushed yourself beyond what you were capable of, and need to push yourself less hard next time

[Barch]

It seems that obesity - to skinniness seems to be a rampant problem in the game dev world.

Paul

You have always moved your legs in the movement of a runner; yet you forsake your way of movement only moving your legs as I believe; have you tried using resistance training; ie weights as a way of gathering indiegamedev energy?

If so what are your thoughts?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@barch - yes, for resistance training i do this something similar to this: http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/ -- it's the most rational presentation of resistance training i've come across so far (though i've tried others)

i think resistance training is important for general health and wellness, but not as important as aerobic fitness is with regards to energy levels. aerobic exercise improves resting heart rate, blood flow, blood pressure, etc., whereas resistance training primarily improves strength. also, afaik, aerobic exercise has been associated with a longer lifespan, whereas weightlifting has not

so basically, if you only have time to do one or the other, aerobic fitness matters more for health, but there's no reason not to add resistance training in too, particularly because it isn't as time-consuming. it is however more expensive; either you need to join a gym, buy weights, or use isometric exercises (which eventually stop getting harder). that isn't cheap. walking, running, or other aerobic exercise is almost free, resistance training can cost hundreds to thousands of dollars. i think like fully 10% of the sales of immortal defense went towards buying weights, it's not a cheap hobby

for someone who just wants to improve energy and be healthy, and doesn't care about getting stronger, i think aerobic exercise combined with some bodyweight resistance like push-ups, pull-ups, bodyweight squats, and similar are all good enough, and free. remember that the goal here isn't to get 'the body of your dreams![TM]' it's just to have more energy and feel better, which is a much simpler goal

[deWiTTERS]

for someone who just wants to improve energy and be healthy, and doesn't care about getting stronger, i think push-ups, pull-ups, bodyweight squats, and similar are all good enough, and free

You can train your strength on a very low budget, with only using your bodyweight. From push-ups you can move to 1-arm-1-leg push-ups, planche push-ups (only hands on the ground) and even 1 arm handstand pushups. Same goes for other excercises: dragonfly's, pistol-ups, one arm pullups, etc.

Equipment doesn't have to be expensive: 2 chairs for dips, table for reverse rows, ab wheel, backback with books for extra weight, ...

If you want to be a huge bodybuilder, you probably need to spend your money on equipment or a gym subscription, and nutrition supplements. But if you just want to get stronger and have an athletic muscular body, all it takes is pushing your body to the limit, 3 times a week for  half an hour. [Edit: during this half hour, I take 5 minute breaks between my 4 different exercises, which means I even code for 15 minutes! I didn't realize this until now by writing this down, but I actually only train 45 minutes per week.]

[Chromanoid]

i'm not sure how anyone got pathologizing out of suggesting that someone eat better and exercise more to improve energy.

if your laziness isn't primarily a health problem (although usually it is), the next most common issue is psychology (having depression, ADD, anxiety, or similar).

I think most people who "suffer from laziness" just raise the bar too high or follow dreams that are so big that it is just depressing to work on them.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@dewitters - i can agree with that, but one thing to note is that the jump between, for example, pull-ups to to one-arm push ups can be pretty drastic, rather than a gradual progression. like, i can do pull-ups but it'll probably be a long time before i'm able to do a one-arm pull-up (if ever). so what you suggest can be done, it's just trickier

@chromanoid - i think you're taking that out of context. by health problem there i specifically meant a problem of diet and exercise, not a serious health problem that would require medical treatment. that is made clear from the context that you left out. that said perhaps the phrase 'health problem' maybe wasn't the best, better would have been 'health issue'? how would you refer to a problem of the body being weak due to diet and being sedentary, but not diseased?

[Chromanoid]

Yeah, I think "health problem" is what I don't like. Maybe "nutrition and fitness problems"?

edit: While doing sports and eating healthy are beneficial factors for personal performance, I think the reason for the gain against laziness is more an awareness and motivation thing. Personal care leads to self confidence and self love. That will stop laziness not because of better physiological performance but psychological attitude towards yourself. I know too many people who suffer from illnesses or who simply live unhealthy while not benig lazy.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

something like that would work yeah, 'fitness problem' or something

i base a lot of this on my own experience: in 2005 i was 130 lbs (i'm 6'3, so that's very underweight), never finished games, had problems concentrating, had lots of anxiety, no energy, never finished games except for tiny contest games, and was constantly switching from game to game cause i couldn't focus on any one game for long without growing bored of it, and also ate terribly and never exercised. i had a resting heart rate of 100, and couldn't even run 20 feet without getting out of breath

i started an exercise program and improved my diet and now in 2013 i have more energy than ever before (even though i'm 34), am now 160 lbs (which is still thin for 6'3 but at least it's in the low end of the normal range), have no problems concentrating and no problems with energy or motivation, finished several games during those years (immortal defense and the fedora spade games among others). my resting heart rate is 60 and i can run about 3 miles now without resting (which again isn't objectively great but it's a big improvement)

and i'm not saying that's the only difference or the only cause of the change, but i think it was a major one

and there are certainly people who don't exercise who aren't lazy, nothing is a 1:1 connection, these are tendencies and trends, not identities

[Conker534]

i noticed this too, all of last year i lifted weights and i felt a lot better than i do today (stopped lifting weights due to the fact that highschool is over and i dont have free weight training).

once i find a job ill be able to afford a gym membership and get back into exercising.

[aberrantmind]

running and walking is free. unless you live in a place where there are no sidewalks or it's super dangerous for whatever reason.

[jprogman]

Personally, my #1 cause of laziness is fatigue. When I'm tired, I don't think right, which often cause me to not solve problems, plan what is next, or... do stuff.
Referring to health and wellness, I have been walking and doing some resistance training -- which had helped lose 90 lbs of myself -- for about a year now. Honestly, that hasn't quite got rid of my fatigue since, as someone mentioned earlier, resistance training focuses more on strength than energy. I believe spending some time walking outside would be a good way to get energy from the movement, the fresh air, and the sun. I keep hearing people needing the sun to take care of the blues and such.
Still, when I'm tired, I would at least try to open my work on my computer, taking baby steps to observe some stuff at a time.
I always thought some work in one day is better than no work in one day. You would still progress to work a bit longer.

[Blambo]

i noticed this too, all of last year i lifted weights and i felt a lot better than i do today (stopped lifting weights due to the fact that highschool is over and i dont have free weight training).

once i find a job ill be able to afford a gym membership and get back into exercising.

took a summer warehouse job once to replace the gym. Did not work.

About laziness, I find that inundating myself with more projects works until I pack myself to tight. I shouldn't be doing this, though.

[cirolve]

Ok so for me, there is this amazing amazing thing called flow. Flow is like this type of focus that I get into when I start programming, probably the reason I enjoy programming in the first place. It's like this hyperfocus where I'm intrinsically motivated to complete the goals at hand once I've started a project. Once I'm flowing time flies by and i'm enjoying myself and the task at hand. Once I'm into this flow state, that's when the real work starts and that's when I can easily work for hours on end and really enjoy myself. However getting into that state for me can be challenging, maybe similar to what you are going through. You really need to just start working, just push yourself to start, and if you can get into that flow then everything is awesome and you make a ton of progress on whatever it is. So my advice is to recognize when you flow, to understand how to get into that state, and to try and get there more often.

here are some stuffs on flow, I think it's pretty interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

[Oskuro]

One trick I've tried recently is to set deadlines for project milestones, and publish said deadlines.

I still missed my first deadline, but to the very least I kept thinking about the project and about the deadline I was going to miss. That's a massive improvement for me, as my major hurdle is that once I get distracted with something new to think about, I too easily put my project in the back of my mind and forget about it for weeks or months.

The publishing the deadlines so you're somewhat accountable is the important bit here. It's similar to gamifying sites like Fitocracy, publicly posting your progress/commitments should trigger that part of our minds that doesn't want to disappoint/look bad to others.

Having a devlog thread here is a good method too, I guess (although I personally prefer to wait until I have something to show before doing so)

Just my two cents regarding recent experiences.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i've done that with my lj, but perhaps i should post my milestone goals in my devlog as well. i figure it's not really worth talking about even though it helps accountability because nobody really cares. i mean, you'd have to be *really* into an upcoming game to care which part of it a developer was working on this week. aside from my own (obviously) there's no upcoming game i care about that much. so sure, the accountability helps, but it's accountability towards something nobody really cares about

[Oskuro]

There needs to be a part of self-delusion for the trick to work, that's true.

I know that no one cares about my project, for example, and I barely have visitors to my blog, but having to write today a post explaining why I failed to meet a deadline I feel is helping me. TO the very least it does help organize my ideas on how to proceed.

Of course, it depends on the person, and it might not work always. In the end it is about experimenting a bit, and mixing things up when stagnation hits.