next »

[Chris Pavia]

there was a loophole where, in the arts, in california specifically, overtime doesn't have to be paid, and since game dev is technically an art they didn't pay programmers for overtime, but made them work overtime anyway or they'd be fired. this changed fairly recently as a result of the ea_spouse scandal, there was a class action lawsuit to seek overtime pay for those working more than 40 hours a week for games companies; so i believe now game devs get overtime pay, but this wasn't the case 10 years ago or so

I've worked at a number of studios here in California from very small to very large, and none of them paid overtime, the same for all my friends (in California at least).

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

ah i see, it seems to have only applied to EA in particular. other game companies still don't pay overtime

http://www.gamespot.com/news/ea-settles-ot-dispute-disgruntled-spouse-outed-6148369

[agersant]

I work for a AAA studio in California and I am paid for overtime.

[Chris Pavia]

I work for a AAA studio in California and I am paid for overtime.

Working as something other than QA? QA often gets overtime because they are usually paid hourly. If you've got a salaried job w overtime then consider yourself very lucky! Also, can I have a job??? 

[agersant]

I am a programmer and I am paid hourly too. I guess I'll consider myself lucky =)

[Eigen]

I work a little over 7 hours a day so I clock in around 38 hours a week. I have "crunched" ~10 hours a day for a week or so to complete an important project but that was compensated by getting a day off. Then again, I live in the civilized part of the world. I feel sorry for those who have to work 60-80 hours a week. To me that seems like a pretty bad case of slavery. If I'd have to work that hard for no extra pay I would simply quit to keep my pride. In my eyes that's worth a lot in a person. I work to live, not the other way round. I would only work on something 10+ hours if I was personally invested in it, like a start-up or something. Regular jobs can go suck it, I'm going home.

But that 40 hour work week article was an excellent read. I didn't realize things were so bad in a lot of places.

[Oskuro]

one thing to realize is that it's *cheaper* for the industry to employ people for 5 years. because, you know, beginners fresh out of college are paid less than veterans.

Sadly, that is endemic not only of the game industry, but of all technology related industries.

And it is, also sadly, a wrong perspective, enforced by upper management, who are usually business people, and suffered by lower management, who are the ones realizing that a more experienced and motivated developer is more cost-effective than an inexperienced one who will be burnt out and eventually leave the team.

It's the idea of "expertise retention" that many HR professionals are trying to make upper management understand. But guess nothing short of a total market crash will get through at this point.


Yes, speaking from experience here. Our development team at work suffers greatly whenever someone leaves for a better opportunity elsewhere, but the upper management (the ones we don't even know personally who decide budgets from overseas) just understand the equation of how much money they put into us and how much they earn, and any decrease in earnings is understood as a failure of the department as a whole.

Not blaming the people making the decisions, though, but the system used to evaluate profitability.

[Superb Joe]

games are art but the damage is irreversible

[Udderdude]

games are art but the damage is irreversible

The nameless developers who suffered so you could play the next AAA quicktime event laden button mash fest.

We salute them.

[Eigen]

When will USA finally intervene and save them from their horrid leaders and ... oh wait ... right.

[ANtY]

Nine Dots needs to release a successful game to prove its point; their last game made $6,000 in sales and gathered $16,000 in crowd-funding.

this is awesome, kickstarter is a better business model than actually making and selling your game

[Udderdude]

Nine Dots needs to release a successful game to prove its point; their last game made $6,000 in sales and gathered $16,000 in crowd-funding.

this is awesome, kickstarter is a better business model than actually making and selling your game

To be fair, I'm pretty sure most people who donate to Kickstarter projects get the product "for free" as a backing bonus.

Kickstarter is also overflowing with projects that never see more than a few bucks tossed their way.

[baconman]

Good link found in the comments. http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/

"Passion" is also described in there.

Read it now and it makes sense. A bit afraid of my future career at software engineering and making me think I should have chosen something else  

It's not just you. It's the normal everything. Inflation has surged FAR FAR higher than wages have, and in some places, even 80 hours of wages barely scrapes people by. A generation or two of math-averse grunts has basically plunged the middle class back into Dark-Ages slavery.

I've been one of the fortunate (not lucky!) ones who's learned how to manage my time and attention across a tremendous breadth of life stuff, including employment, game dev, social/gaming life, family, and dating. Everything gets taken care of eventually, but not always in 5 days or less, that's for sure.

That's also bit me on the ass when it comes to employability, because the honest-to-God's truth is, every industry, regardless of what it is, is looking for the next exploitable sucker. There's a never-ending supply of them now, willing to give 120% of their ever-deteriorating health for 40% of what they need to live on, so even getting that job doesn't get them out of Grandma's house.

This crap is worldwide, too.

We can't really unravel the foundational stuff either, we need groceries from grocery stores, supplies from supply stores; electronics and communication to live and develop with. But there's some companies out there we just shouldn't be doing any business at all with.

Anyone who's ever recieved a "surprise phone bill" from Verizon certainly knows what I'm talking about. The 6G network will happen one way or another, anyhow.
______________________________

EDIT: Also, this isn't something the government or people or anything can fix for us. Cash flow is a private industry matter. We need to stand up for ourselves, know when a job/company is blatant shit, and stop supporting that crap until work/life creative balance is a factor again. And find the companies doing this stuff (and treating their staff) right, and totally back them.

Do your math. I lived on my own in Bakersfield and it took $1300/mo to do so. Totally sober, no retirement option, no kids, no substance abuse, no health/dental, nothing like that. Just bare essentials. And it's common for jobs here to peak earnings at around $1k/mo, outside of oil and drug-dealing or prostitution. I wish I were exaggerating here.

Don't suck at math. Know what you need, know what you're worth. Don't be undersold.

[siskavard]

I work in the animation industry (TV) and it is exactly the same scenario. After 5 years here, I've learned to never put in any more than the required 40 hours, as the wages and work environments aren't worth it. I was on a show that was behind schedule (protip: every show is always behind schedule) where everyone on the team was putting in 80 hours a week with no incentive to do so, other than fear of getting fired. I  came in on time, didn't fuck around & worked solidly until 6pm, at which point I would pack my things and go. My supervisor would always try to lay the guilt down on me every time, but I would just laugh it off.
That same super pulled me aside one day after 6 and told me that I can't leave "early" because it makes those who are staying late feel bad. I told him they should feel bad for staying late without overtime.
Anyways, I never got fired even after being threatened, & I had hoped that others would have started to take my lead, but no. It's just this sad state where people are so afraid to lose their jobs that they mindlessly devote all of their waking hours to a company that could not give two shits about them.

[baconman]

... & I had hoped that others would have started to take my lead, but no. It's just this sad state where people are so afraid to lose their jobs that they mindlessly devote all of their waking hours to a company that could not give two shits about them.

THIS.

This has been every job I've ever worked at (and occasionally when they're in a GENUINE pinch and not just a goal-pushing one, I WOULD put an extra few here and there). And you know why I wasn't fired often? Because it got to a point where I was the only healthy, productive team member left.

You'd think they'd stop and put two and two together, but nope. >.>

[Udderdude]

I think this may also be somewhat relevant : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_bottom

[siskavard]

... & I had hoped that others would have started to take my lead, but no. It's just this sad state where people are so afraid to lose their jobs that they mindlessly devote all of their waking hours to a company that could not give two shits about them.

THIS.

This has been every job I've ever worked at (and occasionally when they're in a GENUINE pinch and not just a goal-pushing one, I WOULD put an extra few here and there). And you know why I wasn't fired often? Because it got to a point where I was the only healthy, productive team member left.

You'd think they'd stop and put two and two together, but nope. >.>

I think that's why I was never fired. Having already some experience under my belt, I'm pretty good & fast at what I do, and that coupled with everyone else on the team being burnt out, I was outputting 3 times the amount of footage as anyone else.

Middle management is stupid about this. They think if they don't see asses in seats 80 hours a week, that nothing is getting done, when the reality is, if you MAKE your employees take time off and go LIVE THEIR LIVES, they won't feel as dreadful working on  your stupid project.

I, in fact had a lot of fun on that project, knowing it was a piece of shit, simply because I wasn't there more than I needed to be. It's all about balance, but management in this industry doesn't understand that. They're just trying to please the people above them like we are.

[ANtY]

Nine Dots needs to release a successful game to prove its point; their last game made $6,000 in sales and gathered $16,000 in crowd-funding.

this is awesome, kickstarter is a better business model than actually making and selling your game

To be fair, I'm pretty sure most people who donate to Kickstarter projects get the product "for free" as a backing bonus.

Kickstarter is also overflowing with projects that never see more than a few bucks tossed their way.

what I mean is that probably many of those who backed wouldn't buy the released game compared to the imaginary image of the game they had when backing the Kickstarter

[Udderdude]

Yeah, "Here's some concept art, it'll be amazing when we make it, we promise" is somehow more valuable than "Here's a playable demo" ..

But I think most of the people that would have bought the game donated to the Kickstarter instead, hence the disparity.

[Blademasterbobo]

because one lets you use your imagination to come up with what you think the game will be like, which is probably pretty similar to what you think it should be like, whereas the other one is a demo.

it's not fucking rocket science, guys.