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[stevesan]

I've enjoyed many a tower defense game in the past, but the worst part of them is waiting around for the waves and the trial and error involved in them. It feels like time wasted. So my idea is the following: simulate the whole game instantly so success or failure is immediately known, and allow the player to "scrub" through the whole game arbitrarily to see exactly what happened.

Imagine a typical tower defense interface, but at the bottom there is a timeline. At the very end, you see a sad face - your goal is to come up with a tower building plan to make that sad face into a smiley face. You'll see the results instantly, so there is no waiting at all, and the trial/error loop is basically instant (limited only by your computer's processing speed). You can scrub through the timeline just like with a YouTube video, and just like doing key-frame animation, you can set and delete actions at any point you want in the timeline - that is your building plan.

Any thoughts on this? Of course, the particulars of the tower defense game will need to accommodate such a play style. You couldn't have "high frequency" player actions, like clicking the suns in PvZ.

The interface would need to be very good as well - we can build on key-frame animation, but most players probably have no idea what that is. I'm thinking YouTube is a better interface analogy to build on.

[Schoq]

Most allow you to call waves early (often for a reward), and to place towers during waves (which is often the key to beating them), so I don't think this is really a problem. A simple fast forward key should do it.
What you describe would be more like a tower defence themed puzzle game, really.

[stevesan]

Most allow you to call waves early (often for a reward), and to place towers during waves (which is often the key to beating them), so I don't think this is really a problem. A simple fast forward key should do it.
What you describe would be more like a tower defence themed puzzle game, really.

True, what I'm describing would be more like a puzzle game. And it would allow you to create really devious wave-patterns that perhaps you wouldn't do in a normal tower defense game.

I just started playing Defense Grid and the fast forward is quite nice, so perhaps that's a simpler solution..

[snowyowl]

I think it sounds fun. The problem I've always had with Tower Defense games is that it's far too easy for an early-game mistake to doom you later on. This solves that completely, though it's technically not a TD game.

Obviously, it would need to be balanced completely differently from an actual TD. Maybe tower power is determined by how many bad guys they've killed, as well as how much money you've spent upgrading them? Maybe you have only one type of attack tower (that's really all you need), one type of "buff" tower that improves nearby attack towers in some (customizable?) way, and one type of "debuff" tower that weakens enemies (either by reducing their defense or their speed).

Oh, and for timeline displays: may I direct you to a

of a time-travel game called Achron? Notice how the timeline has lots of different graphs that measure different quantities (in order: time machine use, damage taken, damage dealt, units built, and total resources). It also allows you to bookmark specific times and return to them later. I think this is a good model to start with.

[Raptor85]

Obviously, it would need to be balanced completely differently from an actual TD. Maybe tower power is determined by how many bad guys they've killed, as well as how much money you've spent upgrading them? Maybe you have only one type of attack tower (that's really all you need), one type of "buff" tower that improves nearby attack towers in some (customizable?) way, and one type of "debuff" tower that weakens enemies (either by reducing their defense or their speed).

there's actually quite a few TD games that are already like that, pixeljunk monsters and crystal defenders both have most of those features.

Honestly from the OP's idea though, without something to limit that it would become boring very quickly, if any mistake can simply be rewound that game would just be incredibly easy.  Mabe take the "Sands of Time" approach and have killing enemies of different powers fill up a rewind gauge

[stevesan]

Honestly from the OP's idea though, without something to limit that it would become boring very quickly, if any mistake can simply be rewound that game would just be incredibly easy.  Mabe take the "Sands of Time" approach and have killing enemies of different powers fill up a rewind gauge

That's kinda like saying if you allowed infinite rewind in a platformer it would become boringly easy.... see Braid So yes, you'd have to make sure to balance and design the game so that it's not boring, and thus it would become a different type of game. More of a puzzle/debugging game with TD-like mechanics rather than a TD game per se...

[stevesan]

Oh, and for timeline displays: may I direct you to a

of a time-travel game called Achron? Notice how the timeline has lots of different graphs that measure different quantities (in order: time machine use, damage taken, damage dealt, units built, and total resources). It also allows you to bookmark specific times and return to them later. I think this is a good model to start with.

Yeah, I tried to play Achron...but really did not get it at all :-/ Does anyone understand that game?

But I agree - the timeline display they have is something to look at. You'd probably want to have graphs for your money and core-damage ("core" == thing you're defending), etc.

[antybaner]

Have you played revenge of the titans? GO PLAY IT!!!

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

most TD games (including mine) feature a fast-forward button, or some type of speed controls; this is sort of like what you describe, except that you'd also include extremely fast ones that go to the end instantly; sounds useful but it'd only work in deterministic TD games (mine wasn't deterministic)

[stevesan]

most TD games (including mine) feature a fast-forward button, or some type of speed controls; this is sort of like what you describe, except that you'd also include extremely fast ones that go to the end instantly; sounds useful but it'd only work in deterministic TD games (mine wasn't deterministic)

Right, it'd need to be deterministic and lack any sort of high-frequency actions (ie. no more than a dozen or two actions throughout the whole level to beat it).

What's your TD game btw?

[stevesan]

Have you played revenge of the titans? GO PLAY IT!!!

Yeah I beat it and it was awesomely fun! But again, I didn't like the trial and error. I played it way back when it was Indie Bundled, so it was in beta and didn't even mention some of the enemy quirks. I had to read some forums to figure out that you need lasers for ghosts and stuff. Also..the research aspect of it introduced another source of potential frustration if you didn't research the right things in time.

But Titans would be the perfect example of a game that would NOT work with my "scrubbing" mechanic: The game is all about high frequency actions. You gotta collect resources, aim your lasers, build a million things, etc. etc.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Right, it'd need to be deterministic and lack any sort of high-frequency actions (ie. no more than a dozen or two actions throughout the whole level to beat it).

What's your TD game btw?

immortal defense

http://studioeres.com/immortal/

[stevesan]

most TD games (including mine) feature a fast-forward button, or some type of speed controls; this is sort of like what you describe, except that you'd also include extremely fast ones that go to the end instantly; sounds useful but it'd only work in deterministic TD games (mine wasn't deterministic)

It would be a bit more than that, since you'd be able to go back in time and tweak your plan as well. So it's like, instant and arbitrary quick-save/load...at all points in the game.. I think the best analogy for it is keyframe animation.