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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralTIGS Epic Thread of Metaphysics
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Movius
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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2008, 04:14:33 AM »

I think you all need to take a read of Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity.

There are a few here who would appreciate it.
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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2008, 04:24:29 AM »

... and by time's hand, all traces of me ever existing disappear...

No, that would be a violation of causality.
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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2008, 04:30:46 AM »

Trivia: metaphysics comes from Aristotle, and is probably named that because some student didn't know its real name and it was the lecture "after" the physics lecture (meta being after in Greek). So the ideas of metaphysics actually have nothing to do with physics at all, that's only a modern association due to wordplay. The subject of metaphysics originally had nothing to do with physics and everything to do with "concepts which are sufficiently broad so as to apply to everything". In other words, the most abstract of the abstract ideas, like existing, causing, being, becoming, changing, etc. -- whereas nowadays metaphysics is often confused with cosmology, but the two are really quite distinct.
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increpare
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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2008, 04:39:20 AM »

I think you all need to take a read of Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity.

There are a few here who would appreciate it.
Indeed, and quite an interesting kerfuffle it caused.  The whole affair spurred me on to explore the authors to whose appropriation of scientific and mathematical terminology Sokal/Bricmont took exception.
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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2008, 04:43:04 AM »


It's a good read.  I met him one time and told him I'd read one of his papers.  He seemed pretty disappointed when I told him which one it was (that one), because he'd thought I might have been interested in his actual research.

I'm actually reading another of his papers at the moment.. something about complex zeros of partition functions.  It's a bit less entertaining than that other one.
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« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2008, 08:58:42 AM »

I apologize for the giant, quote-filled post.

I'm really interested in Henri Bergson's idea of Duration.  Assuming I understood him right, he argued that time/existence doesn't exist in causes/effects or in increments of time (eg. seconds) as we commonly view it.  Instead, everything is one big Duration.  An example he provides is that when a person moves their arm, there are an infinite number of positions between the start and end point, not just a few (like in our sprites).  He argued that the movement couldn't properly be understood as an incremental action when it really was a duration.  He expanded this and argued that other things occurred as durations too.

Unfortunately for him, it appears time and space may not actually be continuous. The Planck length, and similarly Planck time, may actually set a lower bound on a unit of 'time.' Of course, these units are so incredibly tiny that it still makes sense to model with continuous time. Obviously thanks to analysis it's mathematically feasible to do so.

I mean, I sort of understand the idea, but first of all, it may not be correct, and second of all, if it is correct, I don't really think it's a particularly useful description for us to do things with.

wittgenstein up in this bitch

also i think that metaphysics is futile, at least right now, because i have the overwhelming thought that as a civilization we can think and think and theorize and theorize and we can become infinitely close to understanding everything, but we will never have a grand unified theory of all things.  in other words, we will get to .9999999999, but we won't reach one, because in doing so, we'll realize that it was all a positive feedback loop or something else god dammit i don't know right now i'm tired

The point of Wittgenstein's later work was about how language just isn't capable of dealing with these concepts. Time, space, energy, matter, the "hard problem" of consciousness (i.e., why we are conscious at all, rather than the "easy problem" of describing how certain activities in the brain give rise to certain experiences) are just not well suited to linguistic description.

So when metaphysics talks about how there are four kinds of things, or how everything is made out of one kind of thing, it's really just making an analogy or metaphor based on what we understand, things like water and sandwiches and furniture. We describe the meanings of words in terms of other words, so the more precise we try to get with our analogy, the more smeared out it becomes. Beyond some point, we can't even describe our own language well enough to tell whether or not what we're talking about makes any sense.


A few years back, zamp and I had a few too many glasses (erm, bottles) of rum, and we theorized infinity and space in a way, which made the concept of infinity make perfect sense to us, or at least, to me it did.

...

Highly theoretical and yet, at least for me, it makes perfect sense. Any comments? Smiley

It's an interesting idea, but the problem is that it doesn't fit model we have for gravity. With GR we are still missing a considerable amount of matter to actually create closed spacetime curves. Theoretically it is possible for this to happen, if you have enough matter, but so far we don't have the observations to back it up.

Ah, but 0.99999... (etc) IS 1.

The series converges to 1, but you need an infinite number of terms! I think the metaphor still stands.
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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2008, 09:04:48 AM »

I believe the universe is a bunch of hermies connected together. Jazzuo was right.
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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2008, 09:08:32 AM »

... and by time's hand, all traces of me ever existing disappear...

No, that would be a violation of causality.

I don't think he's actually suggesting reaching back in time.

I think, fundamentally, we have to approach the situation with a bit of reason. When we talk about existence, what we're really talking about is discernibility, i.e., can we 'find' it?

This is why there is no point in discussing God from a philosophical standpoint (other than historically or in social philosophy) because, where is he? Ditto for Platonic forms. Where do they exist? If you're going to claim there's a Platonic plane of existence, please provide pictures. Basically, we can't even start thinking about discussing ontology until we can actually point to something to start our discussion on.

That's my huge problem with a lot of this "time isn't real"-type metaphysics. When you talk about time, what are you actually talking about? In science, time is equivalent to its measurement, which is about the best definition for time I've ever heard, even if its self-referential. When you talk about how only now 'exists', it's just a funny language trick for explaining what everyone already knows, that the past tends to stay in the past and not continue to happen in the present by definition of what we choose past and present to mean.

We run into a lot of trouble when we can't actually indicate directly what we're talking about.
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increpare
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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2008, 09:50:29 AM »

Quote
This is why there is no point in discussing God from a philosophical standpoint (other than historically or in social philosophy) because, where is he? Ditto for Platonic forms. Where do they exist? If you're going to claim there's a Platonic plane of existence, please provide pictures. Basically, we can't even start thinking about discussing ontology until we can actually point to something to start our discussion on.
There's a large body of discourse on the topic of platonic solids and god.  Can we not point to these?  (and if they be ambiguous, contradictory, and/or polyvalent in their descriptions, what of it?)
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2008, 10:55:51 AM »

That's my huge problem with a lot of this "time isn't real"-type metaphysics. When you talk about time, what are you actually talking about? In science, time is equivalent to its measurement, which is about the best definition for time I've ever heard, even if its self-referential. When you talk about how only now 'exists', it's just a funny language trick for explaining what everyone already knows, that the past tends to stay in the past and not continue to happen in the present by definition of what we choose past and present to mean.

We run into a lot of trouble when we can't actually indicate directly what we're talking about.

That was sort of what I was trying to say in my post. Meta-concepts like infinity and time are actually impossible to perceive outside of themselves. Infinity, for example, can only be described by infinity. For another example, think about how many numbers are between 0 and 1 divided by infinity. The answer is infinity. Even though 1 over infinity is an infinitely small number, there's still an infinity of numbers that can be crammed between each infinite incrementation. In other words, any problem involving infinity actually contains an infinite amount of infinity, which means that it's impossible to directly perceive or describe infinity.

I actually consider time to be separate from infinity, though. It's impossible to describe exactly how I feel about time, but the short of it is that there's only a single instant that actually exists, that is Now. The past and future don't exist.

Most people try to consider time as a collection of instants: one instant existing for each moment in time. They think that the instants all exist, and that "time" is this universe progressing through each instant. However, I consider it more likely that nothing exists outside of a single instant, that is moving forward.

I'm hoping that I'm making even the slightest bit of sense here.
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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2008, 11:55:12 AM »

There are many different ways of formalizing different notions of infinity (last time I tried I could count six of them).  If you care to know more I can offer a brief description.


Quote
Infinity, for example, can only be described by infinity.
I call BS.  Infinity can, in some senses of the word anyway (there are many conceptually distinct sorts), be described as the property of not being finite.  This is pretty definite.

Quote
For another example, think about how many numbers are between 0 and 1 divided by infinity. The answer is infinity.
Says who?  How the devil did you come to that answer?  (your brief explanation does not suffice).

Quote
In other words, any problem involving infinity actually contains an infinite amount of infinity, which means that it's impossible to directly perceive or describe infinity.
What about the question "is 2 infinitely large"?

There *are* problems with defining infinity IRL.  For instance, given that counting takes time, you can never know if a given set is infinite, because the only way to find out is by counting forever and never stopping (which doesn't make sense).  There are many related issues similar to this one.
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2008, 12:12:58 PM »

Quote
Infinity, for example, can only be described by infinity.
I call BS.  Infinity can, in some senses of the word anyway (there are many conceptually distinct sorts), be described as the property of not being finite.  This is pretty definite.

Quote
For another example, think about how many numbers are between 0 and 1 divided by infinity. The answer is infinity.
Says who?  How the devil did you come to that answer?  (your brief explanation does not suffice).
"Not finite"? Isn't that pretty much by definition mean "infinite"? You just said infinite in a different way. I cold look at synonyms for the word "big", and come up with things like "gargantuan", "huge", and "very big", but in the end I'm still saying "big". The definition of infinity can't be explained without using infinity to describe it. At any rate, I'm trying to say that infinity itself is recursive, not that the definition must be. I'll try to give a better example for explaining it than last time.

1 over infinity is said to equal 0. However, it is technically a number. If you continued adding 1 over infinity over and over again, you would eventually reach one. However, you would need to do it an infinity times. In other words, Infinity / Infinity. You can only offset infinity with another infinity. It is only compatible with itself, and it doesn't work with any other number. It's not even compatible with itself sometimes, since different representations can increment separately from others. There's an infinite number of integers in the number line, but there's also an infinite amount of decimals, which increment more slowly on the number line. If you divided integer-infinity by decimal-infinity, you would get more than one, even though it was technically infinity on the top and the bottom of the equation.
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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2008, 12:48:30 PM »

"Not finite"? Isn't that pretty much by definition mean "infinite"? You just said infinite in a different way.

Yes, the definition of infinite is "not finite".  I think his point was that FINITE HAS A DEFINITION DAMMIT; a set is finite if it has a natural number of elements.  "Natural number" also has a definition.  "Set" has a definition.  "Has this number of elements" has a definition.  Look them up.  There's no difficulty in defining infinite, it's not defined in terms of itself.

"Infinity" is not a number.  It doesn't make sense to try manipulating it by the usual rules of arithmetic - these rules work within a particular domain of numbers, if you try to apply them outside of that domain you end up with nonsense.  Dividing infinity by infinity is like subtracting a tree and five oxen from a cat times happiness.
There are actually rules for doing arithmetic on infinite values - look up "cardinal arithmetic" and "ordinal arithmetic".  But in these systems there is no one number called "infinity", because there are infinite sets with different sizes (like your example of real numbers vs integers).

Edit: Of course, you're welcome to use a philosophical 'definition' of "infinity" like "dude it can't be defined except IN TERMS OF ITSELF trippy huh", just try not to confuse it with the mathematical definition.
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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2008, 01:08:43 PM »

I am an expert on infinity. Cool

The infinite things I work with most (nonstandard elements of models of arithmetic) actually behave a little bit like what GeneralValter is describing in the first half of his second paragraph. They have all of the first-order properties of the normal, standard numbers, but are also bigger than every standard number. So if a is such a nonstandard number, you can do arithmetic with it. 1<a, 2<a, 3<a and so on, so 1/a<1/2, 1/a<1/3, 1/a<1/4 and so on, so 1/a is smaller than any standard rational, but is not 0; it's "standard part" is 0. But a obeys the rules of arithmetic, so (1/a)*a = 1. And also a+1 is different from a etc.

Basically if there is some property of the natural numbers you are interested in, it's generally possible to extend the numbers by some new elements that behave in a similar way with respect to this property, in order to learn interesting things. You can call these new elements "infinite numbers" if you want. But the kind of thing you get depends on the property - if it's size, then you get infinite cardinals; if it's how they are ordered, you can get infinite ordinals; if it's their arithmetic properties, you get nonstandard numbers.
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« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2008, 01:35:31 PM »

I am an expert on infinity. Cool
Ultrafilters FTW  Grin
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« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2008, 01:51:46 PM »

I've been reading Matter and Memory by Bergson on and off for the past year.  I haven't seen anything of what you've mentioned in that book though so far.  The most striking thing I've read by him so far was his description of the act of concentration.  The weakest of his ideas I think is the one that people have a soul, and that thus they are incapable of forgetting (though some of the examples he gives in justification are interesting).  For some reason I seem to be able to read most of his stuff without paying attention to this belief of his (and indeed view it in quite the opposite way).

None of this is exactly metaphysics though.

Quote
  Instead, everything is one big Duration.  An example he provides is that when a person moves their arm, there are an infinite number of positions between the start and end point, not just a few (like in our sprites).  He argued that the movement couldn't properly be understood as an incremental action when it really was a duration.
That's essentially just half of Zeno though isn't it?  It's not clear what you mean by 'duration' here.  When I think of duration, I think of a set of end-points in time.  It doesn't connote ideas of space or experience explicitly, so I think I'm missing something.


Quote from: lynchpin
With this mass, there would be gravity, and the matter flowing along the sides of the sphere (in two-dimension, yet infinite surface) would slow down as they would hit the top of the sphere
I don't understand of what use the sphere is at all in this picture...
The bit of Bergson I read was his paper "An Introduction to Metaphysics." He gives numerous abstract examples that describe duration, because he believes one example (or really any number of examples) can't properly describe it; in the end it is a feeling, and he hopes his examples help the reader to find the feeling of it too.  And given that the paper isn't that long I recommend you read it; certainly less taxing than a whole book.

It certainly is metaphysics, because Duration is directly related to understanding time.  From what I understood, Duration was like the flow of life, and that individual causes and effects were rendered meaningless when a person's whole life was viewed as a duration instead of simply a series of causes and effects.  That series of causes and effects is incremental, whereas Duration is not.  One part of a duration cannot be separated from another.

Haha, lets be unacademic; here's the wikipedia article on Duration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duration_(Bergson)

Oh, and I think it's hilarious that this thread actually took off.  I went to bed with neon's rejection of it, and I come back now and there's an interesting three pages of discussion!
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« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2008, 02:19:53 PM »

ha, i didn't mean to reject it!  you guys can have tons of fun with it, it's just that i'm kinda burned out on metaphysics and philosophy in general right now.  solely my opinion, nothing more.
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« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2008, 02:29:41 PM »

ha, i didn't mean to reject it!  you guys can have tons of fun with it, it's just that i'm kinda burned out on metaphysics and philosophy in general right now.  solely my opinion, nothing more.
And you have every right to have it!  Beer!

Really, I've done a lot less of it lately too, and have gotten quite rusty quite quickly.  That said, I guess I'm doing quite a lot of "thinking" still, it's just a lot more practical and down to earth.  For example I'm toying with how exactly architecture could be infused with the natural world; buildings that truly integrated plant and animal life into them.  The only examples I can think of are ruins (which aren't really functioning buildings anymore) and some of the digital architecture in Metroid Prime 1 (which I suppose is ruins too, though some buildings seemed to have trees etc. integrated into them even when they were fully functioning).  There's just something about the natural aesthetic that I love, and given that humans have spent a lot more time hunting and gathering in the natural world than in cities, I think nature needs to be looked at again instead of humanity simply staying isolated in our purely artificial environments.  There's got to be a happy medium or some sort of hybrid way of life.
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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2008, 03:13:30 PM »

Some of this stuff has already been mentioned, but hopefully this is an explanation which will be readable for everyone? Not everyone has done math courses and knows what cardinality and ordinality are.

That was sort of what I was trying to say in my post. Meta-concepts like infinity and time are actually impossible to perceive outside of themselves. Infinity, for example, can only be described by infinity. For another example, think about how many numbers are between 0 and 1 divided by infinity. The answer is infinity. Even though 1 over infinity is an infinitely small number, there's still an infinity of numbers that can be crammed between each infinite incrementation. In other words, any problem involving infinity actually contains an infinite amount of infinity, which means that it's impossible to directly perceive or describe infinity.

As has been mentioned, you can't divide a number by infinity. Infinity is not a number. You can 'append' infinitely large and small numbers to the real numbers to get the hyperreals (among other fields), which are a proper extension of the reals and you can derive calculus with them in a way analogous to real numbers, but they do not include 'infinity.' One over infinity (the multiplicative inverse of infinity?) only gives you zero when you write it on a math exam. I'm not going to talk about those, though, because typically we have more experience with real numbers, and those are more familiar for non-math people, so I'm going to talk about them instead. For those who are scared of math, this is basically rigour free: there is only one proof and you can actually skip it without too much worry (although I recommend looking at it, at least).

Part I -- Infinite Sets:

It is true that there are the same 'number' of elements in the real numbers in the interval between zero and one as in all of the real numbers. In fact, there is a set called the 'Cantor set', which you get by taking 'almost' everything (by a very specific definition of almost) out of the interval in between zero and one, and it turns out it contains the same 'number' of elements as the entire real line.

The reason I'm putting 'number' in quotes is because it's sort of a naïve term for what we're talking about, and it is what makes a lot of people confused about the topic. It is very important to be specific here on what we are counting and how we are counting it. If I say I have an infinite number of apples and an infinite number of oranges, what do I mean? I certainly can't mean that I have 'infinite' in the same way that I could have, say, 'five'. What I mean, when I say I have infinite, is that there is no end to the number I have. So, no matter how many I give you, I can always give you another one.

If we take that to be the definition of infinite, then how do we compare infinite values? With our infinite apples and infinite oranges, we could start by developing a process of comparison which assigns every apple to an orange. If we can construct a process such that every apple goes to an orange with no two apples going to the same orange, regardless of whether we pick apple #1 or apple #1,000,000,000, we can say that we have the same 'number' or, in math terms, that there exists a one to one correspondence between apples and oranges.

Now it turns out by this logic that we can develop a one to one correspondence between the natural numbers, the kind you use for counting, and the integers, which are the counting numbers including zero and negative numbers. The same goes for the rational numbers, which are ratios of integers. We cannot do the same for any of these and the real numbers (I hope you have a general, intuitive idea of what real numbers are, because defining them rigorously from scratch actually requires more than I am inclined to write here).

So there are 'more' real numbers than there are natural numbers, but as I mentioned before we can establish that there are the same number of real numbers between zero and one as there are real numbers. It sounds weird, but by the above definition it actually makes sense. It does not mean that you can count them all up and get the same number. It just means that you can construct a relation between them such that our apple/orange condition is met, such that, no matter which number in the interval between zero and one you pick, it is assigned to exactly one real number and there is no real number such that a number on the interval between zero and one is not assigned to it.

Part II -- Limits and Convergence for Dummies:

That takes care of infinite collections of objects (takes care of = barely touches on), but what do we do with them? If we have infinite numbers of things, can we do operations on all of them and get some kind of meaningful result?

The basic foundation of doing math with infinite numbers of things is a sequence. A sequence is just a function (meaning you put one thing in and you get one thing out the other end) between natural numbers (counting numbers, remember) and some other set, in this case real numbers. An infinite sequence has a way of taking any counting number and giving you a real number value back.  For example, we can take the sequence {a_n}, such that a_n=1/n. That is to say, for every element of our sequence, we take the number of that element and divide one by it (or take its multiplicative inverse or however you please).

To bring this back in touch with something meaningful, the idea behind this exercise is that, if we start looking at what happens to this sequence when n gets larger and larger and larger, we get some kind of meaningful way to define a concept like '1/infinity' in some way that we get an actual answer besides 'come see me during office hours.'

To do this, we must define the notion of a limit. If we can, for some number L, take any interval of any size we would like around L and show that there is a tail end of the sequence which lies completely within this interval, we say that the sequence is 'convergent' and that its limit is L. In math terms, we say that for any e (pretend that's a Greek epsilon) where e>0, there exists some $N$ such that |a_n-L|<e whenever n>=N. In other words, given any positive number e, we can pick a number N such that every element in our sequence associated with N or a number larger than N  is within a distance of e from the number L, the limit. In other other words, the sequence gets 'closer and closer' to the limit (although this naïve definition is not as descriptive as we would like).

The simplest way to do this, to quote a professor I once had, is to 'cough up N.' Just show that you can find one for your L, given any e>0. For the case of our series (which we would hope has a limit of zero), it's easy: take N to be the smallest number such that N is greater an 1/e (I'm skipping a lot of the rigour in this explanation, but this guaranteed to exist since we have an infinite number of numbers and they are all ordered). Since N>1/e, e>1/N and |1/N-0|<e. Of course, 1/N is also greater than 1/(N+1), or any other, larger n, so the statement above is true and we can say that 'the limit of 1/n as n goes to infinity is 0'. Ta da!

So we haven't just said that 1/infinity is zero, we've actually defined what it means to have infinite numbers of things and defined a meaningful limiting process which gives us a result which we can prove (incidentally, you can easily prove that the limit of a convergent sequence is unique).

You can take the above definitions and start deriving theorems from them basically right away. You can say 'what if we define a sequence by adding up the terms of another sequence' and you can get infinite sums, you can look at limits of functions in an analogous way (this is how calculus is built), etc. As a simpler exercise, you can also describe what happens when there is no L such that the above is true and come up with the idea of divergence.

Part III -- What Does It All Mean?

As has been mentioned before, there are many ways to describe infinitely large or small values, but the above is the most intuitive, I think, because it doesn't require you to picture a number larger than any number or anything funny like that. You just have to picture the idea of a process that keeps going as long as you would like.

This is a mathematical truth, and it takes for granted certain axioms. The idea that you can have an infinite number of numbers is kind of an axiom, in this case, as there are meaningful algebras (groups, for you math-types) on, for example, sets of four numbers (actually, you can prove there are only two of these, although that's another story). In fact, there is a meaningful algebraic structure you can define on one number (but it's pretty boring because everything gives you the same number).

Asking whether this has any deeper truth which is integral to the universe itself runs the same risks as asking the same question for any other concepts, but if you're going to talk about infinity and expect to be taken seriously, it helps to have a consistent definition, like the above, so you don't appear to be 'subtracting a tree and five oxen from a cat times happiness'.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 04:34:42 PM by I Like Cake » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2008, 05:28:45 PM »

Of course you can divide by infinity! It just makes the answer zero. Unless you're multiplying by infinity, too, and then it's just indeterminate.

You're thinking that I'm treating infinity as a number. I'm not, really. It is possible to use infinity in equations, it just turns the equation into something else entirely.
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