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trilby
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« on: December 06, 2012, 05:51:11 AM »

How many here have a full time job to contend with/pay the bills and are looking at getting there foot on the first rung of the indie ladder?  How do you cope, I'm finding it very difficult!?

How many of you have succeeded leaving your full time employment to persue your dream?
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Muz
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2012, 11:54:23 PM »

Well, if you're going to do it, make sure you've got enough money to last a while. Most people assume that all they need is instant noodles and enough to pay the bills. Braid cost $200k to make, and people keep defending him, saying that most of the cost is because he wanted to live in a proper house. But that's how it works when you're indie. When you work for yourself, you're effectively paying yourself a salary.

The real cost of making games is whatever income you're losing out on not working. You lose out on the training you'd get from keeping a real job. You lose out on contacts. Even if you pay nothing, going indie is expensive!

If you're going to do it, at least have a proper plan. Get a full development roadmap, plan out where and when you expect it to end. Estimate how much money you'll make. Calculate costs. Make sure you have enough to last a year, without getting distracted by things like having to work freelance. Be professional, treat it like starting your own one-man company.
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Gregg Williams
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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2012, 01:01:34 AM »

It really all depends on how you do things. If you want to be 100% independent, including no contract work, than you have some serious financial things to consider.

Basically its easy to get caught into a loop of needing to make and sell small projects to be able to fund living and the next small project. If one of those projects run over schedule, or doesn't sell well it can leave you in a bad position. Its also difficult to do big projects, while pumping out small ones to pay the bills.

A lot also depends on the platforms and audience your interested in making games for. This will affect dev time schedules, development costs, and so forth greatly.
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Sergi
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2012, 01:16:00 AM »

I have thought about this a lot, and I think I see things clearly in my case.

I have some, but not a lot, of game making experience; I've been programming for a long time, plus, I've made some unfinished games and finished one at a jam. I could live for 2 or 3 years off my current savings, assuming current expenses. But it just doesn't make much sense for me now.

My roadmap is: to make small games for a while, learning by failing and finishing games. That way, I get more used to the workflow and tools, I get better at everything, I keep writing down ideas and working on them in my head, etc. Later on, I would try to make something bigger, and if I ever have something promising, then I would consider leaving my job.

For now, working part time seems like a good compromise, if I ever can (it's rare to work part time in tech jobs here, so it's not easy...).

So in general, I'd say it depends on whether you've got a plan, if you have reasonable expectation to make money out of the projects you'd work on. Otherwise, going all in seems risky and foolish.

If you have savings for surviving a particular amount of time, you would last way longer with a part time job and you'd have a lot of free time still. Finding a part time job in your field might not be easy, though. Especially if it's in videogames and they have a non competing clause.
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Evan Balster
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« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2012, 01:37:34 AM »

I do the contract work / indie dev thing.  Took about a year and a half to get the hang of it.  If you can get reasonable pay for your contract work it can work out well, but that depends heavily on your skills.  And having to switch gears all the time is less than ideal for your projects...

I will say, though, that contract work can be way less brutal for your projects than a full-time job.  Just make sure you limit your time commitment per week; some contracts are much more demanding than others in that regard.
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trilby
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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2012, 04:32:19 AM »

Good advice guys.  I so wish I had started several years earlier.  I now have a wife, a 3 year old and another on the way to contend with!  My own plan is to use every hour of my spare time to create a couple of mobile games, see if they generate some income and then plan it from there.  Always in the back of my mind though I know what will take 6 months now could take 2 or 3 if I were working on my ideas full time  Sad
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Gregg Williams
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« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2012, 05:45:39 AM »

Yeah dependents and lifestyle are huge factors into things as well.

I for instance quit my job with Intel two years or so ago to work fulltime on my indie game studio. Things went alright for awhile, between game releases and savings, but my previous lifestyle was an expensive one built around a six figure type salary, plus with having dependents, and a giant malamute.

Fast forward to two years later, a game that went way over its production timeline, and then failed to sell well, and my house is foreclosed, and I'm also in quite a bit of additional debt. I ended up taking on contract work, but it was basically a to little, to late scenario, especially with my previous lifestyle expenses.

Now I've moved to a small town and have some house that rents at under 600/mo vs almost a 2k/mo mortgage, and am doing a consistant part time game dev contract gig (fixed weekly hours) to cover expenses. It certainly means a bit less time per week to work on the business, but it also has enabled me to decide to work on a larger 1-2 year project, vs needing to pump out small games constantly for cash flow.


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bateleur
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« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2012, 06:13:18 AM »

Good advice guys.  I so wish I had started several years earlier.  I now have a wife, a 3 year old and another on the way to contend with!

That's not always a bad thing. When I was in a similar position was the time when I made the switch from office work to freelance (contracting plus indie dev), since this meant I was working at home every day and my wife was free to be in the office (more useful for her career than for mine).

The general lesson being: adapt to your circumstances rather than fighting against them.

My own plan is to use every hour of my spare time to create a couple of mobile games

Don't make a couple. Make one really, really good one. Seriously - all the mobile markets are more than saturated right now. I'm not an expert on mobile, but it seems to me that unless you hit a mobile game right out of the park it will make pocket money at best.
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Muz
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« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2012, 06:29:07 AM »

Downside of contract work is that other people don't pay for your training. A good company will often get you some damn good training and teach you excellent basic training. Especially if it's the same field. I probably learned more tricks in probation time than I did in all my time making games by myself, and the pressure helps you to learn faster.

But if a steady job is not your thing, you might want to consider professional part-time work. oDesk is a great place for freelancing. They keep track of what you do, so if you're doing a lot of decent work, you'd get a better reputation, and get some good paying stuff. So you can just do contracts for 6 months, until you get enough money to feed yourself for a couple years, then just quit and go indie.

Also, be wary of contracts. I could probably write a book on how they can go wrong (normally with little cheating on their end). But some simple things.. make sure you lay out and document exactly what they want. Charge for extra features, or you'll spend months on polish. And make it crystal clear that mobile layouts don't end up like the sketches do.


Quote
My roadmap is: to make small games for a while, learning by failing and finishing games. That way, I get more used to the workflow and tools, I get better at everything, I keep writing down ideas and working on them in my head, etc. Later on, I would try to make something bigger, and if I ever have something promising, then I would consider leaving my job.

By roadmap, I mean have the development schedule for your game clear. Every feature should be outlined, or else you'll fall into the feature creep trap. If you want to survive on donations/kickstarter, people should know that you're giving them, when to expect it done, how far the progress is exactly. If you're surviving on your own money, you still want a clear scope so you know how much time to waste on small features, and when to cut things out.

Doesn't have to be detailed, just spend a day, or even just a couple hours planning all the components along the way.

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Don't make a couple. Make one really, really good one. Seriously - all the mobile markets are more than saturated right now. I'm not an expert on mobile, but it seems to me that unless you hit a mobile game right out of the park it will make pocket money at best.

Er, just my experience with touchphones - I'd say quantity beats quality. It's like learning programming over from scratch, because everything is designed differently. You will mess up your first few apps.. heck, I'm on my 5th and I still don't have a consistent design that I'm happy with. Probably one of the biggest traps is applying a lot of experience with PC development, especially typical assumptions on UI and concurrency.

You don't want to churn out lots of things of the same type, but you want to try lots of small, different things and learn from the experience. Something like making your first PC game - it sucked, and never became your big hit, but you learned from it.
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hanako
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2012, 08:17:53 AM »

How many of you have succeeded leaving your full time employment to persue your dream?

In some ways it's easier when your fulltime employment leaves you. Or rather, I had to leave the last fulltime job I had a very long time ago for reasons which had nothing to do with my indie aspirations. When you can't work a real job, have a stack of student debt and no savings, and have to do whatever you can to scrape cash together? You get creative.

... It also helps to not have kids. I've been supporting myself and my husband with games for many years now, but we don't have an expensive lifestyle.
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Sergi
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« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2012, 08:34:26 AM »

By roadmap, I mean have the development schedule for your game clear. Every feature should be outlined, or else you'll fall into the feature creep trap. If you want to survive on donations/kickstarter, people should know that you're giving them, when to expect it done, how far the progress is exactly. If you're surviving on your own money, you still want a clear scope so you know how much time to waste on small features, and when to cut things out.

Doesn't have to be detailed, just spend a day, or even just a couple hours planning all the components along the way.

Oh, sure, I do more detailed docs for games as well. I was talking about broad strokes, long term plan of what I'm thinking I'll do to progress in general.
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Graham-
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« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2012, 11:09:38 AM »

The money thing is one of the trickiest parts of our thing... unless you started with it.

Planning... etc. The thing I underestimated the most was the loss of insight I had because I wasn't living in my previously normal way. In order to keep my financial situation stable I had to cut out a lot of things that used to be there, and suddenly the inspiration I normally had a lot of wasn't so readily available. I had to find a whole new way of working.

There are a lot of holes in the games market, mobile, anywhere. The issue a lot of first time indies have, the ones dependent on sales, are in underestimating the complexity of predicting the financial success of a product. A lot goes into deciding whether or not something will sell. Sometimes in indie circles a lot of these ideas that link sales to reasoning are elevated almost to an occult status because they are so misunderstood, when they are just as logical as anything else.

It's hard to look at a market, determine what is saturated, what sells, why it sells, and make a projection based on that. It doesn't take magic, it just takes analysis. You have to convince yourself that your design provides something. I don't know how you can learn to do this, but I do know a poorly analyzed product a mile away. There is a line of reasoning.

The easiest way to learn is of course practice. Make something that you are sure optimizes cost/benefit. You must be able to say, "this product will make the most money per hour put into it out of any idea I could possibly have." Or you must be able to say something similar. Make sure your product is small then release it. If it fails learn from that. Make sure your first game is your best game possible.

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trilby
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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2012, 06:20:39 AM »

Graham reading your post is almost like reading my own mind out loud!  I thought the same about how do you know if your game will sell but then I  decided ultimately it isn't any different to any other product - you can only judge it based on your market research.
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jack_norton
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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2012, 02:55:46 PM »

When I left the job, the company went under a month later :D
I was already working part time on a game though. I think if you can make it, probably is better to start part time WITH A SMALL GAME (don't attempt Diablo 5 as first game!) and see how it goes.
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trilby
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2012, 02:17:54 AM »

That's my current plan. I'm working on a small game for the casual gamer that utilises a simple ui ideal for mobile devices.  Simple but addictive. I haven't released too much info about it yet because I'm only about a third complete.  If its a flop then I have two other good ideas up my sleeve I will peruse (both mobile games). All of my own research suggests with mobile having more than 1 game is better anyway.  Just a shame it will take so long...
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