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[Valter]

Ah. Thank you for clearing that up. It sounded like you were just attacking the plot because you didn't feel like talking about the other aspects of the game.

Cave Story is definitely overhyped, probably because it was the largest and most detailed indie game out there when it came out. It was the best then, and the nostalgic indie gamers would probably still say that it's the best now too. I'm definitely one of those people who actually thinks less of a game that is super hyped up.

My main problem is that I get annoyed by people who only ever think of one part of a game. There's graphics, gameplay, music, story, and other things that can all make a game enjoyable, but people have a tendency to get all hung up on a single aspect of it. It happens to me too (FF7's graphics...), but I try not to condemn things just because one part of it was weaker than the rest.

[JLJac]

I like it, because when I downloaded it I had never heard of it. It took me by surprise, I didn't even think it would have a plot. This is what over-hype does, people that otherwise would have been "Yeah, that's a pretty good game " now get expectations so high they desert to saying it's bad, sometimes even just for the sake of showing those who like it that they are too easily impressed.

I think that most people that just play cave story without taking what others have said into consideration will find it a good little game, but then there's the hype

[Anthony Flack]

Ouch, making comparisons to the Sistine Chapel ceiling is setting the bar pretty high. Michelangelo's solo effort was so impressive that people have been talking it up for five hundred years.

I also think that it is generally best, in an action game, to allow plot to be secondary to gameplay. If you're going to bend the gameplay to fit the story, then it had better be a DAMN good story to justify dicking with the game design. Plot holes are to be expected, because action games are essentially abstract compositions, with a light veneer of plot applied on top to help create context.  "Story" and "game" are essentially antithetical to each other, so every non-abstract game has to strike a compromise somewhere in-between. I expect the occasional failure of narrative logic to arise in order to better serve the construction and composition of the game.

You may be able to work over every angle until the plot is totally airtight, but in doing so you run the risk of suffocating the game. It's possibly better to avoid giving too many story details and allow people to fill in the gaps themselves for this reason.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Okay, my thoughts are this:

First, when people complement Cave Story's story, they don't mean the plot as such. They usually mean things like the characters were interesting and colorful and funny. Which is about as much as you can ask for a story in a platform game -- well, Iji had a more sophisticated story in a platform game, but that's not my point. My point is that praising the story doesn't mean it's a great story by the standards of IF or novels, it means that the person liked Balrog's funny face and dialogue, or liked how cute the puppies were that you collected for the old women, or liked that you could save Curly Brace if you knew exactly what to do, and run through the final level with her attached to your back. Just that.

Second, the whole thing about "I’ve seen people say that Cave Story made them cry. I do not see how this is possible. It requires an emotional attachment to the game that is only possible if the player strongly desires it." makes little sense to me. The same could be said about any story. If you purposefully resist caring about a story, you won't, and if you want to, you will. Caring about a story is always voluntary, no story forces you into it. Stories can do things to make it easier or harder, but ultimately no matter how poorly written or well written a story is, if you want to get into it and care about the characters, you will, and if you don't want to, you won't. People have to do some work to associate themselves or things about their life to the characters, they use their imagination, to feel sympathy or like or dislike or other attachment emotions always takes work on the audience's part. Some people (sentimental people, you might say) can easily feel that attachment. I cried when Aeris died, yes, because I'm a sympathetic person in general, even though I agree that she was a stupid character and that the story was badly made. But that passage seemed to imply as if you felt something was morally wrong for people with people who got emotionally attached to the story of Cave Story and FF7. I don't think there is. It's not a sin to get emotionally involved in a stupid story.

[Reiss]

honestly this rant was someone going to the opera and complaining that it wasn't a metal show.

[William Broom]

I'd be able to ignore the nonsensical relation of the setting to the narrative if I didn't see the narrative treated as so exceptional so often.

I think most of this debate stems from this assumption you're making, that everyone says Cave Story's story is exceptional. I don't think this is a very common opinion. Mostly when I hear praise for Cave Story, it's about the gameplay, graphics and music, with a short note about the story tacked on to the end. Even the miraigamer fansite says nothing more than that it is 'bizarre and understated' and that 'there is sheer style oozing from it' ( http://www.miraigamer.net/cavestory/info_1.php ).

Can you point out any reviews/posts/etc that do praise the story as 'exceptional'? Or is there anyone on this forum who would argue that?

[ThetaGames]

I don’t get how people like video game music. I find most video game music to be purely functional, with certain themes being vaguely memorable. With “traditional” video game music (that is, square waves and saw waves and etc.), the music within one game risks getting samey, with little variance of instrumentation. Also, the entire soundtrack is only like half an hour long. Does this person honestly sit in one place and actively listen to the same music several times in a row? This is video game music. It does not reward repeated listenings. It is not Trout Mask Replica, damn it.

I'm going to have to disagree on this point.  I find the music for cave story to be excellent; it utilizes such square and sawtooth waves in a manner that is expressive and inventive.  It is quite a good soundtrack, and I could definitely listen through it (though maybe not multiple times).  I think some people under-appreciate the value of video game music.  In my opinion, I think a good game should have audio that is as artistically planned as the game itself.  His statement that most video game music is "purely functional" may be accurate for many games, but there are also many examples of games with excellent soundtracks (Shadow of the Colossus, Katamari Damacy, etc).

Music is a vital part of video game design, and I feel it is too often overlooked.  What graphics do for the eyes, music should do for the ears, and it should all provide an artistic foundation on which the gameplay is built.

I like the Frank Zappa reference, though. 

[Kneecaps]

I like the Frank Zappa reference, though. 

It's Captain Beefheart you fool!

[ThetaGames]

It's Captain Beefheart you fool!

Shit, you're right.  Zappa did produce the album, though, and does appear on one of the tracks.

[Yigguth]

The author doesn't understand that people are actually shedding tears of joy
edit: Okay, fuck this guy. It was all fine until he started saying shit like "hurr durr videogame music isn't all that great"

[googoogjoob]

If you purposefully resist caring about a story, you won't, and if you want to, you will. Caring about a story is always voluntary, no story forces you into it. Stories can do things to make it easier or harder, but ultimately no matter how poorly written or well written a story is, if you want to get into it and care about the characters, you will, and if you don't want to, you won't.

This is true. What I meant was that Cave Story does not make me want to care about it. If a story is compelling enough, it can motivate me to care about it. If you go into a non-compelling story and it makes you cry, that's much more a reflection of you than of the game.

I'd be able to ignore the nonsensical relation of the setting to the narrative if I didn't see the narrative treated as so exceptional so often.

I think most of this debate stems from this assumption you're making, that everyone says Cave Story's story is exceptional. I don't think this is a very common opinion. Mostly when I hear praise for Cave Story, it's about the gameplay, graphics and music, with a short note about the story tacked on to the end. Even the miraigamer fansite says nothing more than that it is 'bizarre and understated' and that 'there is sheer style oozing from it' ( http://www.miraigamer.net/cavestory/info_1.php ).

Can you point out any reviews/posts/etc that do praise the story as 'exceptional'? Or is there anyone on this forum who would argue that?

To be honest, the praise for the story is more an impression I've gotten over time, but it isn't hard to find praise for the story. From a quick Googling:

The first reply to this topic: "great plot"; this says "Cave Story's plot and gameplay runs circles around [Megaman plots]"; this page (which is the first place I found out about Cave Story, and is thus probably disproportionately influential to my ideas) has as the first positive point about the game "Excellent story", then, in the review below, says "The story's built up like the best. It starts out by introducing you to the world. Slowly but surely, things unravel, with new information and plot twists as you go. This is done so masterfully that it will keep you captivated and absorbed in the game from the very moment you start playing right to the very end. Before you know it, it'll be morning again and you'll still be clutching the game, wanting to see how it goes on."; this review gives the plot 10/10 and calls the plot "deep and interesting", while this one says the plot has "engrossing plot twists".

Even if this is a minority opinion, I suppose I've been exposed to it disproportionately. I've never really made any effort to seek out any commentary on Cave Story (other than, perhaps, a walkthrough).

It's Captain Beefheart you fool!

Shit, you're right.  Zappa did produce the album, though, and does appear on one of the tracks.

Two tracks. (Pena and The Blimp.)

edit: Okay, fuck this guy. It was all fine until he started saying shit like "hurr durr videogame music isn't all that great"

You treat the idea that "video game music is great" as true by default, and this same quoted sentence could be turned around by changing the "isn't" to an "is". This is totally a matter of opinion, anyway.

[Problem Machine]

No, saying a medium is bad by default is pretty much always a dumbass thing to say. Judging the quality of a work of art by its medium is a waste of everyone's time. Don't try to change the debate between "Video game music can/can't be great" into "video game music is/isn't great." The latter doesn't even make any sense.

[Inane]

this says "Cave Story's plot and gameplay runs circles around [Megaman plots]";

It's so weird to me that someone can think the plot is great and that the graphics aren't in Cave Story. I mean, I like the plot, but shit the graphics are excellent compared to, well, most platformers.

[Mitchard]

I meant, like, why is there a warehouse full of flowers when you could, say, burn the flowers. Unless the fumes enrage the Mimigas, in which case you could set them on fire then throw them off the island.

I think that perhaps you are looking a bit too much into a game where a giant ghost cat throws balls at you and a giant talking mushroom is used to cure a robot of insomnia.

The story to something like this is only there to provide you with some emotional context to your actions. The role of the evil doctor isn't there to be an interesting, sympathetic, three dimensional character, he is there to make the act of beating him more satisfying and enjoyable. Not everything has to make sense and when you're trying to apply real world logic to a surreal, two dimensional platformer, I think you may be missing the point somewhat.

I'm sorry that you walked into a cute, atmospheric 2D shooter expecting Finnegans Wake, perhaps if you learn to adjust your expectations somewhat you may enjoy things more.

There's nothing wrong with relearning how get lost in something simple.

[googoogjoob]

To say this again, more explicitly: I don't expect much of the plot of a platformer. But if I see the (unexceptional) plot of a platformer praised in multiple places, then I'm going to get irritated.

this says "Cave Story's plot and gameplay runs circles around [Megaman plots]";

It's so weird to me that someone can think the plot is great and that the graphics aren't in Cave Story. I mean, I like the plot, but shit the graphics are excellent compared to, well, most platformers.

This review also says the game follows the story of Sue, and that Doctor Booster is "wacky". I don't think the person writing it played the game for more than twenty minutes.

[Mitchard]

To say this again, more explicitly: I don't expect much of the plot of a platformer. But if I see the (unexceptional) plot of a platformer praised in multiple places, then I'm going to get irritated.

I disagree with them as much as I disagree with you. Some people are going to over exaggerate, miss the point and rant about pretty much anything they have a strong opinion about. In this respect you've done exactly the same thing the people you are reacting to have done.

Perhaps you should just relax, realise that you don't see what others do in a little free video game, and that complaining about something that you missed the point on isn't going to go anywhere.

Next time you find yourself in a similar situation with something different, try entering it with an open opinion. If you stop building your expectations on the opinions of enthusiastic fans, you may find you enjoy things more.

[googoogjoob]

Next time you find yourself in a similar situation with something different, try entering it with an open opinion. If you stop building your expectations on the opinions of enthusiastic fans, you may find you enjoy things more.

I did come to Cave Story with a very nearly open opinion. I played the game and formulated my own opinion of the game- an above-average platformer with a perfunctory storyline. After this, though, I encountered obscene amounts of hype related to the game, much of which seemed to be built off of other hype rather than being built off of the game itself. The hyping of the plot in particular irritated me.

I did enjoy Cave Story. I'd be able to ignore its flaws if I didn't see it hyped as if it didn't have any flaws. Hype can only ever make me enjoy something less.

[JLJac]

Next time you find yourself in a similar situation with something different, try entering it with an open opinion. If you stop building your expectations on the opinions of enthusiastic fans, you may find you enjoy things more.

I did come to Cave Story with a very nearly open opinion. I played the game and formulated my own opinion of the game- an above-average platformer with a perfunctory storyline. After this, though, I encountered obscene amounts of hype related to the game, much of which seemed to be built off of other hype rather than being built off of the game itself. The hyping of the plot in particular irritated me.

I did enjoy Cave Story. I'd be able to ignore its flaws if I didn't see it hyped as if it didn't have any flaws. Hype can only ever make me enjoy something less.

I feel the same way about Mario, I actually don't find it bad, I just don't see anything particulary good about it. The concept is super hyped though, and because of this I sometimes find myself saying "I hate mario", which isn't really true. I have very little feelings for mario itself, but I hate the hype about it. It's a decent platformer with flat characters and no particular story line, and for some reason it angers me that so many people raise it to such devine heights.

When you are in this situation you often get desperate to make your point to the people who love it so much they just wont take any arguments. Then you start to look for flaws, and of course you find some. However I think it's important to differ between the hype of a concept and the game itself.

Also, it's pretty unnecessary to make those lists of arguments(have done it myself). Half of your list made me think "That's nothing I really care about", the other half "He didn't get that right". I have played the exact same game as you, and I already have my opinion about the things you listed. It's like a political or religious debate, the only thing you can know about the outcome is that no one will change their minds.

Some like some games, others don't. There's really nothing to discuss, is there?
 

[Gnarf]

As a reaction to (some of) the hype/praise, I'm sure it's fair enough though.

It doesn't seem like anyone here really thought the plot was that bloody amazing, so I'm sure it seems a bit irrelevant. I wasn't really aware that any substantial amount of people really thought it had a great plot. And most of the bits of quoted text in the rant would be stuff I'd chalk up to general retardation rather than dwell on. But most of the points made in the rant really seems all right to me. They're not stuff I care a lot about, but then it seems to be targeted at the people who do praise Cave Story for its deep and interesting plot.

So, like,

honestly this rant was someone going to the opera and complaining that it wasn't a metal show.

Yes, sure, it was. But then it was meant for the guys who were all "Hey, you should go to the opera! It's the new Death!"

Having pixelation as an purely aesthetic choice is fine, but if it's a choice made to try to achieve some sense of "retro-ness", then I don't know.

And that's hella true.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

What I meant was that Cave Story does not make me want to care about it. If a story is compelling enough, it can motivate me to care about it. If you go into a non-compelling story and it makes you cry, that's much more a reflection of you than of the game.

Yes, but if you go to a story that makes many other people cry, and you don't and instead criticize its shallowness, and let minor things get in the way of enjoying a story, it's also a reflection of the person more than the story. Whether someone enjoys a story or not is always a reflection on that person. And it felt that your implication was that people who  can enjoy any story are worse than people who can only enjoy some specific stories, which makes little sense to me.

It seems to me that if you're going to spend your time on a story anyway, you may as well care about it and its characters. I see no reason to resist doing that, you'd have a more fulfilling experience by enjoying a story and getting immersed in it (no matter how bad it is) than by remaining distant and not enjoying it. So I look at it as a virtue if someone can enjoy even bad stories.