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[CosmicMaher]

So gravity, dirt, etc cannot "have appeal aside from their function"? You cannot make dirt or gravity artistic? I think you can, and I think they are both necessary for survival, so that negates your definition and the "anything not related to survival" one, because they are both broad and don't account for anything. What exactly exists that has no real appeal aside from its function? A good artist is just going to take whatever you say and make it appealing, because that is what a good artist does. It's more engaging.

My problem with the piece on the first page is that it is not engaging. It doesn't teach me anything, it doesn't really make me think, it is not beautiful, it's barely anything at all and what it is isn't engaging to me. There's a simple idea being presented and it's a pretty wooden (pardon the pun) idea. Maybe to someone else it is, fine, such is the case with art being very subjective. I think things that attempt to be engaging in categories like that are bound to be treated like art, and those that do not probably won't be considered as such, except by art critics and people who just feel the need to defend them for the sake of the term.

[J. R. Hill]

You cannot make dirt or gravity artistic?

The process of changing a certain amount of dirt by forming it or coloring it etc could definitely result in art, but it's not the dirt itself that is art just like the paint in a tube isn't art. (Though the tube or its logo, etc is certainly artistic)

Likewise you could also see art in naturally formed dirt and rock etc, but again it wouldn't be the dirt itself but the formation, and to go back to earlier arguments the quality and value of the art is created by the observer, not necessarily the creator.

[CosmicMaher]

You cannot make dirt or gravity artistic?

The process of changing a certain amount of dirt by forming it or coloring it etc could definitely result in art, but it's not the dirt itself that is art just like the paint in a tube isn't art. (Though the tube or its logo, etc is certainly artistic)

Likewise you could also see art in naturally formed dirt and rock etc, but again it wouldn't be the dirt itself but the formation, and to go back to earlier arguments the quality and value of the art is created by the observer, not necessarily the creator.

So you need to turn things into art then, like your paint example. How is that "appeal outside of function"? Are you viewing the universe as some giant machine and we are interlopers making the parts do different things and that is what art is? Pretty weird definition, if so. I get the idea that manipulation of existing things plays into it, however.

I think the quality and the value of the piece of art depends on the artist and the observers, and honestly after creation the artist becomes an observer anyway so you are drawing a line between two nonexistent entities. Everyone is an art observer after it is made.

That doesn't really change at all that the definition of art that you provide, as well as most others, is so broad as to be useless. All you are basically saying is "anything created by a person by manipulating existing resources is art". Which is different than "appeal outside of function". Like what, code that looks nice but totally sucks is artistic? I don't think that is very meaningful or has the ability to be very engaging just because it could appeal outside of its function.

[CosmicMaher]

Another thought also: you cannot have something that appeals without a function. Further I'm pretty sure everything has a function or functions, so I'm not even sure what you're referring to at this point.

[J. R. Hill]

wat I didn't say art can't have a function.

Heck I could use the Mona Lisa to shovel dirt, or the statue of David to hang my hat.

I honestly can't tell if I'm being confusing or if you're just having fun twisting what I'm saying away from what I mean.

Anyway you get the last word, I'm tired of this.

[falsion]

Wow, why even engage in an arguement if you can't stand up for what you're saying? Lots of spineless people around here. Seems to be a trend on TIGSource.

For example, this one comment I saw on VVVVVV where someone backed down from arguing about it

Considering all that, stuff like this that’s only fun once and costs 15 bucks seems kind of silly to me. But it’s really just dandy if some of you thinks this is the second coming or something. I honestly don’t care about this game enough to pick a fight about it.

I really facepalmed hard at that. I mean why bother saying anything in the first place then?

[nikki]

I mean why bother saying anything in the first place then?

Maybe because picking a fight does not equal an argument

As for Art, isn't that just the stuff an Artist makes ?

btw. I find it useful to think in terms of Fine Art and Applied Arts

bye!

[falsion]

I mean why bother saying anything in the first place then?

Maybe because picking a fight does not equal an argument

As for Art, isn't that just the stuff an Artist makes ?

btw. I find it useful to think in terms of Fine Art and Applied Arts

bye!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_%28disambiguation%29

Look at the third bullet point.

[BorisTheBrave]

I really facepalmed hard at that. I mean why bother saying anything in the first place then?

What, people aren't allowed to state their opinions without an unwavering commitment to defend them to the death, or admit defeat? Particularly as something as subjective  as how much something is worth, there's only so much reasoned discourse you can have. (fwiw I still think it's good to defend your opinions).

[falsion]

I really facepalmed hard at that. I mean why bother saying anything in the first place then?

What, people aren't allowed to state their opinions without an unwavering commitment to defend them to the death, or admit defeat? Particularly as something as subjective  as how much something is worth, there's only so much reasoned discourse you can have. (fwiw I still think it's good to defend your opinions).

It shows a lack of character. You should always try to be bold and be never flip-flop on anything. If you are unsure that you are right about something or if it's something you don't feel strongly about, then keep it to yourself and don't indicate otherwise. Don't start arguments if you don't intend to finish them.

But anyway, we're getting a bit off topic here. Let's try to get back to whatever was being discussed before.

[J. R. Hill]

Too late you contradicted yourself, everyone else wins.

[falsion]

<f1re> nigga if i say something on irc im ready 2 die 4 that shit

words to live by. except replace IRC with the internet or even anywhere.

[Mar]

Too late you contradicted yourself, everyone else wins.

dude we should be friends

[Nate Kling]

It shows a lack of character. You should always try to be bold and be never flip-flop on anything. If you are unsure that you are right about something or if it's something you don't feel strongly about, then keep it to yourself and don't indicate otherwise. Don't start arguments if you don't intend to finish them.

Uh I kind of cringe at that advice.  While I see that you should be bold to a certain degree I think its totally okay not to be sure of something and I think its harder to be humble and admit that you arent sure.  Its very easy to just be bull headed and pretend like you know it all.  If you want an honest discussion you have to be honest.  But yeah a certain amount of confidence is necessary when making an argument.

[Jad]

It shows a lack of character. You should always try to be bold and be never flip-flop on anything. If you are unsure that you are right about something or if it's something you don't feel strongly about, then keep it to yourself and don't indicate otherwise. Don't start arguments if you don't intend to finish them.

Uh I kind of cringe at that advice.  While I see that you should be bold to a certain degree I think its totally okay not to be sure of something and I think its harder to be humble and admit that you arent sure.  Its very easy to just be bull headed and pretend like you know it all.  If you want an honest discussion you have to be honest.  But yeah a certain amount of confidence is necessary when making an argument.

"you should always" this preaching sounds sorta, man I dunno.

I think he's exercising 'internet artistry'?

[JaJitsu]

hey everybody. for my materials of art and design class i had to make something out of disposable materials. I choose q-tips



even though I made it i'm still thinking, "how is this art too?!"

[nikki]

since your thinking that, your not an artist, and thus that is not art. 

[Shade Jackrabbit]

The box is being held open with a stick, even though it could easily just be flipped open. Yet as humans we are fearful of fully opening a box, as it is hard to close. The stick is out reluctance, as we want there to be a way to quickly slam it shut if we don't like what's inside.

Of course, there is nothing, as we can see. The box is empty. And of course, that scares us the most.

Of course it's art.

[Corpus]

How was anything in my post an argument against you, or an attempt to contradict(?) the question "why does everyone care so much?"  I was just answering the question--letting you know why I care.  I have no idea whether you think people should or shouldn't care or why, mainly because you haven't said.  I'm curious as to why you would see an answer to the question as an attempt to argue with your personal views, when they are nowhere expressed?

touché. I can't remember what I said now so I can't answer this, but we should have dinner some time or something

[Jrsquee]

i've done art once or twice





i think