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[dspencer]

Hello,

I am yet another wannabe game developer who's never *really* finished a game. I plan out a game, but it quickly becomes too ambitious. If I don't put enough into it, though, its tough to get really excited about making it. Now, I have actually made those games that everyone is told to make: tetris, pong, a really simple shmup. But I guess my question is: what is the next step between that and a large scale procedurally generated fully intractable survival game?

More specifically, how do you keep your projects simple?

[Hempuli‽]

Hello,

I am yet another wannabe game developer who's never *really* finished a game. I plan out a game, but it quickly becomes too ambitious. If I don't put enough into it, though, its tough to get really excited about making it. Now, I have actually made those games that everyone is told to make: tetris, pong, a really simple shmup. But I guess my question is: what is the next step between that and a large scale procedurally generated fully intractable survival game?

More specifically, how do you keep your projects simple?

Oh, this is so classic. In fact, someone at the Daily Click called this the Big Game Fever.

Personally, I usually fight this by remembering my own capabilities and planning the game based on those. In fact, if you plan the game before beginning, and try to keep it as realistic as possible, it's easier to avoid this Big Game Fever. Another way to avoid this is to create games under some special deadline. I've found it very refreshing and helpful to do some 1-3 hour compos; the tell me how capable I am. Also try to think what you really are ABLE to do, coding-wise; It's the worst thing ever to begin to plan "The Biggest Indie MMORPG - I just need a graphician and a coder".

[easynam]

I have the same problem, though I'm probably worse off; I probably wouldn't be able to finish making a one level platformer before I got bored of it

[Mikademus]

It's the worst thing ever to begin to plan "The Biggest Indie MMORPG - I just need a graphician and a coder".

Read in another board sometime ago, "Now recruiting! We're making a MMORPG [immense feature list, vague references to a 100 pages+ design document]. Open positions: 3D engine programmer. Network programmer. Framework programmer. 3D Artists x 3. Texture artists x 2", etc etc ad absurdum.

[shrimp]

(I had to rewrite this as it originally came out a bit like one of those Charles Atlas style adverts)

I've found what really works for me is to write out a design for either the full game or a particular feature and then think how you could simplify it, what you could remove and still preserve the core of the experience for the player. And just repeat that process: Write out the simplified design (or just cross things out, whatever) and simplify/cut stuff. Be ruthless and see how many times you can iterate that.

The good part of writing out the complicated design(s) is that you have a record of all the ideas you had and didn't want to leave out, so you can always re-add them to a later iteration. Actually writing the design is kind of a satisfying creative thing too.

You could also use some kind of mind-mapping software, or a bugtracker, or something like Acunote (web-based project-planning app) to keep track of stuff to go into future versions.

This probably has some overlap with (or at least inspiration from) the "prototype and fail early" approach that Jon Blow was giving presentations on a while ago.

I'm also making a procedurally generated survival-ish game! (...which is on its 3rd-4th iteration) Make a Devlog thread!   

Anyway, looking at your cockpit compo entry thread it seems like you're not suffering from manbabyMMORPGitis, so that's good.

[JasonPickering]

here is something I always tell other people getting started. think of your progression the same as the industry progression, start with atari and work your way to WoW. My suggestion would be to try and pick a small game idea and attempt to make a game around that. you want people to play your game because its fun not because "its the new Huge MMO" cause after 5 minutes they will be like "yep thats pretty big, UNINSTALL"

I have the same problem my projects usually balloon out of control. one thing I was suggested by an old animation professor (it conicides here too) can you describe the point of your game (or animation) in one sentence. if you can't then its going to be to complicated. you need to narrow down the theme you want and write that down, and continually check that against the work you have done.

my example is this:

I am making a 2d platformer I have constantly added things, and taken things out but I constantly focus on the point of it, " A guy that grows flowers as he walks". I had added all this extra stuff of different powers and when I came back to my main point, it didnt fit. it didnt add anything. I threw out the special powers. once you figure out what your game is the design almost comes natural. Super Mario 64 had a demo built and as the designers were running around they were challenging each other on wall-kicks to see who could get higher, this gave birth to the ice level where you have to wall-kick up to get a star.

I would also suggest looking at older games in genres you enjoy. if its a type of game you enjoy playing, your more likely to continue with it.

if you need any more help, being it with editing out stuff or just some general help feel free to PM me.

[Lyx]

Starting out small may - as the OP mentioned - however feel not very motivating, because remaking tetris for the one billionth time is meh.

My proposal is: Make it your goal to come up with something creative and new, without it requiring much. Look at for example all the art-games - many of them programming and designwise dont contain "much". So one solution could be: Dont copy something else as a "tutorial". Just come up with a simple interesting game idea.

[Starflier]

Not that I'm much of one to give advice, being in the same predictament, but here goes:
Traditional wisdom says take your game idea and boil it down to no more than two lines. Great games are made this way, "A yellow circle has to navigate a maze, eat small dots and avoid ghosts. Also, eating big dots let said circle eat aforementioned ghosts temporarily." or, "Build a city out of roads, zones and municipal buildings and make sure that everyone's happy and not getting zapped by a runaway movie prop." See, easy to do...
So do that, and if your two lines sound something like: "Only the biggest multiplayer-3d-platformer-strategy-puzzle-shooter with rpg elements EVOR. And also with good art." If it sounds like that, tuck it away in your "When I have people working for me file" and try again. Don't try to hack away at an awesome idea. just leave it alone and try something smaller.
Here's my other advice. Think of a game as a series of elements and the interactions between them. (Unless it's story driven, like a JRPG, Visual novel, or some Adventure games) Things like crates, bullets, npcs, goombas are elements, things like exploding, dropping powerups and telling you that the princess has moved on to annother castle are events coming caused by interactions. Bear in mind that you have to program every interaction between two elements. This goes up exponetially. If you have 10 elements, then that's 100 interactions. I don't know about you, but that's good for me. So start with a game that has under 10 elements. Program it nice and neatly, with lots of comments and make it modular so you can add more interactions later. The same goes for a story based game, start with less than ten events. (And I mean specific events. Like: "Armandi finds a sword" not: "Armandi defeats the Elvin kingdom") Make it as non-liniar as you want, but ten events max. Do that first and then up the ante in the sequel.
Okay, last one. Plan everything out before you even think about coding/doing art/starting Multimedia Fusion. you don't have to go crazy-go-nuts like this guy But anything you can see happening in your game, write it down somewhere, in some kind of order, so you can look it up later. For me it tends to be a single page, but my games tend to be a bit simple (Chromes, Balloon to the Moon)

Woah, that was long... Came in from reading Dinosaur Comics, sorry.

[CK]

think up, write down, categorize, make (preferably one at a time)

good luck

[Gainsworthy]

WARNING: The Following Is Theory. I've Never Finished a Game*. I'm Going to use Metaphors.


That out of the way, I'd say your idea is going to grow. Like a potted plant. Seeing as it's living in your head, it's getting plenty of sunlight, nutrients and water. Hopefully you're singing/talking to it as well, I hear that helps!

...SO! Point is the ideas grow of their own volition once they're planted, and regardless how good your initial intentions are, it's going to get Bigger and Crazier and Messier. Before long it'll start dropping leaves in your sink, make getting through the door inconvinient, shatter its pot, and generally become a mess. Then you'd need to take it outside, or it'd up and die on you.


...There I go again. What you need is regular tending and PRUNING. Be tough, be brutal - ideas can survive a lot. Every few days, look at your idea. Write it down, if it helps. Think about every new growth, and think to yourself "Does it fit with the rest? Will it bear fruit? Will it topple what I've achieved so far?" It doesn't matter if it looks cool, or if it's "got potential... somewhere." If it adds useless bulk, CUT IT. Do it there and then. If you really like the cut idea, plant it somewhere else and look at it later.

On the other hand, if you see something wonderful emerge, and you're sure it will work, give it some love and attention. Just make sure it fits with the original plan, so to speak.


Keep your idea Pure, and Clean, and Neat, and who knows! You might just end up with a nice, well rounded, happy plant. Good luck Comrade Spencer.

 

*It's working wonderfully on my newest one, though!

[ElGenerator]

...what is the next step between that and a large scale procedurally generated fully intractable survival game?

There is not one. There are many. The smaller the steps the better for you. For me the 'divide and conquer' pattern works best. After the initial game design thought I've roughly three to five 'features' that the game should have. Each feature will now be broken down into sub features. Each sub feature will be broken down again. This break down continues until I am satisfied with each feature.

Additionally I'm using some project managment software to keep track of my (sub) features. This is some extra work but what I gain from that is worth a lot: First I can see what lies ahead. And second what is aback. This is keeping my motivation up for long and complex projects and in the first place this makes it possible for me to work on complex projects.

[Mipe]

Set your eyes on a goal.
Work toward the goal. Once there, stop.
Don't move. Just stop there.

Turn back. Slooooowly. See that journey you made to the goal? That is your game. Work on it, iron the frills and bugs out, release, pat yourself on the back and start a new game.

This time, you may set a higher goal if you want.

So, yeah... the trick is in defining the goal. Keep it as simple as possible, then work on reaching that goal.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

what i suggest is helping others make their games first. only after you gain experience with that, try to make your own games. helping others make games to learn how it's done (like an apprentice) is the way i learned to make games, and it's the way i recommend most.

[Alex May]

Give yourself a month to get the game out the door.

[Lynx]

One step at a time.  Break your game idea down into separate modules/concepts, then write one module at a time.  Structure things so that each module is its own prototype/testbed and gives you something you can mess with.

Resist the urge to do the whole game engine at once.

You need the freedom to go back and rip out a module, and completely rewrite it from scratch.  I'm currently on my 5th redraft of a GUI library.  If I were locked into my first implementation, I would be so incredibly demoralized by working with a design I now perceive as horribly flawed that the rest would probably never get done.

So let's take this:

a large scale procedurally generated fully intractable survival game?

And break it down into modules and stages.

• Procedurally generated terrain.  Nothing like being able to see your game world.
• Explore!  No combat yet, just set it up so your character can run around.  If airships or jeeps are going to be important, throw those in.  Is it fun to zoom around?  If not, fix the running/vehicle controls.
• Combat - skip procedural terrain and ecology here and just make a small arena game.  Is it fun to fight the zombies/wild beasts/whatnot?
• World simulation.  Now that you can fight stuff, start spawning monsters/random encounters/whatever and give your character default equipment, and put in a debug bar so you can switch the equipment.  Tweak the simulation so that the big carnivores don't eat all the herbivores and die, leaving your character wondering where the dinosaurs went.  Check that your character can survive easy areas with little or no gear.
• Economy.  Et cetera.

At each stage you want something that you can use and play with, then you're adding new systems with each following stage.  But if it makes more sense to make a new system a standalone project, then do that, and come back and add the refined system later.  And again, don't make modules be integral to the game engine, give them clear input/output pipelines so that you can chop out a module and rebuild it if you want.

[Mipe]

Modularity++

[swarmer]

I started making this extremely ambitious RPG project.  I worked on it for over 2 years.  I realized that at the rate I was working, I wouldn't be able to finish it ever.  I decided to put it on hold and make smaller games.  Specifically, I had a goal of making several small games, each in just one week.  I made 2 so far. 

Making a game from start to finish taught me immensely about a lot of important aspects of development.  Not only management issues, like feature cutting and time management, but also design issues, like how to redesign features that don't work well during testing.   I would suggest making a few small scale games before making any large game.  A falling block game is a good way to start.  Plus with small games, you can test out innovative ideas.  Maybe one of them will be the Next Big Thing.

[Alec S.]

I would say the next step after remaking simple games is to make new simple games.  Or rather, make some rapid prototypes.  When I was first starting to learn Game Maker, and after I did the basic tutorials, I set out to make one game prototype a week, which I did for four weeks.  The trick to this is to come up with one clever/unique gameplay mechanic and create just enough of a game to test it out. 

Once I was done with this, I felt quite comfortable with Game Maker, and could move smoothly through it.  I then made a full game out of one of my prototypes.  By full game, I mean graphics, sound, and a fair deal (in the case of this game, 5) of levels.  I completed this game in about a month. 

Try to keep your first few projects at around this time-frame.  Of course, as you get more and more comfortable with the tools, you'll be able to make larger games within that time-frame.

Once you have some experience going through the whole design process from concept to finishing and release, then you can start to tackle longer term projects.  I personally like to have a few projects going on at once, of varying sizes, so that even while I'm working on a larger project, I have some smaller projects which I actually get to release.

 

[dspencer]

Thanks so much, everyone! All of your replies are really helpful, and its really encouraging that everyone is supportive.

Before I go on, I should preface that I'm using C++ with openGL. I'm quite comfortable with C++ and have been using it for a long time, while openGL not so much (but I've been using it for almost half a year at this point).

I suppose this would be a good place to ask follow up questions. Sorry this is really rambly! Hopefully others who have similar problems can find some answers/ask more questions in this thread.

On prototyping: Sometimes I'll have an idea, but no idea how to write it quickly. For instance, I'll be playing around with an idea for a platforming game; however, getting even a basic platforming system out is really time consuming and complicated. At this point, I have one; should I just copy paste it for other games? Or would it be better to just use another tool? I've been playing around with Processing, for instance, but again I run into setting up the entire platforming system from scratch. I don't have MMF or GM, although I have experience with other klikteam products.

On Assets: I have no artistic ability - to the point that even my stick figures look terribly ugly. Can anyone give me any advice on how to remedy this? I don't really have time to learn how to make beautiful pixel art, but I'm sure there's something I can do...

Again - Thank you all so much for your help. Its really encouraging.

[I_smell]

I'm making a game with 8 levels. I started it in September and so far I've got 4. I've got Big Game Fever D: