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[Zenorf]

XBLA isn't really designed to be indie friendly. Goes with the name really. It's designed to host popular styled titled that'll make a nice chunk of cash from the general public. Niche titles do occasionally pop on "such as Braid" but even then the developer claimed to have spent $120K before getting it published. ?Not a lot of indie developers can afford a couple of K never mind 100+.

[BrianSlipBit]

These require that you pay a very large amount of money or give up a large % of the revenue to MS. In short it isn't very indie friendly.

That all depends on what you consider a "very large amount of money".  I think cert runs around $10k or so, give or take a little.  It also depends on whether or not you fail cert and have to resubmit.  Honestly, cert costs are minimal in the grand scheme of getting either an XBLA or AAA title to market.

As for Braid's costs, I believe the majority of the $120k+ was actual dev costs, and not things like cert and localization.  Although, they (cert | loc) surely accounted for some percentage of that number.

[Swattkidd]

Watch

, the part where the guy starts speaking, it should help you out 

[Impossible]

JForce Games has been posting sales stats for their game Avatar Showdown. Although not amazing by any stretch, I think if JForce can make a decent amount of money on a side project, a good game could potentially match hit XBLA titles.

Of course, the fact that most of the top selling games on XBLIG are massage games, avatar games, or zombie games doesn't really help.  On the XNA forums people made jokes about the ultimate XBLIG game being "Avatar Zombie Massage."  Someone needs to make that game .

[r.kachowski]

On the XNA forums people made jokes about the ultimate XBLIG game being "Avatar Zombie Massage."  Someone needs to make that game .

oh jesus, i am so doing that asap

[JackieJay]

I took a look at the Avatar Showdown game, and then went to the sales stats page. My reaction was simply "wtf ?"

They sold 2500 units in a single day, with a 20% conversion rate. How the fuck is that possible with such a crap looking game ? Ok, the trailer is neat, but I don't think that's enough to make the game generate over 30 000 $ in less than two months.

[Impossible]

They sold 2500 units in a single day, with a 20% conversion rate. How the fuck is that possible with such a crap looking game ?

A certain subset of people on XBL are hungry for any games with Avatars. XBLA developers generally can't or don't capitalize on this, with a few exceptions like Ninja Bee, and retail Xbox games almost never have avatars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_%28Xbox_360%29#List_of_games_using_Avatars).  There are currently more Avatar games on XBLIG than anywhere else.  Its shameless, but there is a market for it...

[I_smell]

The keyword here being "good quality", that mean don't waste averybody's time if you want to produce flash quality games

I'll have you know there are a lot of good Flash games out there better than any game on XBLIG >:I

[Chris Z]

The keyword here being "good quality", that mean don't waste averybody's time if you want to produce flash quality games

I'll have you know there are a lot of good Flash games out there better than any game on XBLIG >:I

...and vice versa.  I think what we can agree on is that you'll get shitty games with no review system or a loose peer review system, regardless of platform.  The current XBLIG review process does a good job of not letting buggy games through, but reviewers are not allowed to fail based on game design or art quality since those things are subjective.

[Jolli]

I took a look at the Avatar Showdown game, and then went to the sales stats page. My reaction was simply "wtf ?"

They sold 2500 units in a single day, with a 20% conversion rate. How the fuck is that possible with such a crap looking game ? Ok, the trailer is neat, but I don't think that's enough to make the game generate over 30 000 $ in less than two months.

because it's a dollar and its just funny!

[moi]

The keyword here being "good quality", that mean don't waste averybody's time if you want to produce flash quality games

I'll have you know there are a lot of good Flash games out there better than any game on XBLIG >:I

In that sentence I'd replace "a lot of" with "some", and i'd agree.

[Stegersaurus]

because it's a dollar and its just funny!

I'm not sharing my exact stats at the moment, but my current XBLIG title is getting a lot of downloads like Avatar Showdown did, but I was a bit surprised when my conversion rate was lower than Showdown's, even though my reviews are slightly more favorable.

I have a few theories about why this might be. Although both games are humor based, purchasing Showdown does give additional jokes the further you get in the game, while in my game, which is more about high scores than any kind of level progression, all the humor (and gameplay) aspects are apparent just by playing the demo. The full game lets you get higher scores and doesn't interrupt good gameplay sessions, but there is no "extra" humor to be had and the player can tell. Another possible reason could be that, based on 1 or 2 videos of my game, sometimes people who play the game are REALLY bad at my game... like... using DIVE and BOOST powerups at the most inopportune times. I can see that as something that would make the game really unfun for someone, and perhaps those numbers are enough to effect sales? Theory 3.... people are too embarrassed to pay for a game called "Baby Maker Extreme", but not embarrassed enough to download the trial.

[JackieJay]

I suppose theory 3 is at least partially right. I can't image someone telling his friends "Hey doodz, look at this awesome gaem I just bought, it's called Baby Maker Extreme". That's prone to make you the laughing stock of your group of friends. I know this for a fact, I used to get a lot of stick from my friends when I was at the university because I enjoyed playing some freeware games they labeled as a "huge piece of shit".

btw I'll be honest with you, I think you could hardly come up with a worse name for your game, even if it's humor based.

[owendeery]

Hey Steg I play tested your game and my friends thought the title was great. I suppose this doesn't apply to 'real' people but when you hang out with game developers then theory 3 is void .

[Chris Z]

Sweet, more closeted XNACC TIGers... You guys should check out/utilize this thread if you haven't already.  Sorry for plugging it again but we need more people to come out of the woodwork in order to grow this subcommunity.

Ah so Steg is responsible for Baby Maker Extreme?  Yea the cover and name probably turned people off to it... I thought it was pretty funny though. 

[Stegersaurus]

If it's the name that got people to not buy it, I have absolutely no regrets. Even if it's embarrassing to some, it's also compelling because it's still getting a crapload of downloads per day. I've also added "kiddie art style" and "no sex" to the list of reasons why people may download but not buy it. It may be that I just get more lookie-loos but those additional people who trial it aren't people who are the kind who are likely to buy it. Or maybe I'm just overthinking!

[Zenorf]

You should blame it on the poor economic conditions. That's what most people are doing.

For my game I'll say there are 5 good reasons people might not want to buy it.
1. I told them not to buy it. Just vote for it.
2. It's an advergame that should have at most been 80 points but due to the rules is 240.
3. It's very hard for a lot of people to figure out how to play in it's current version.
4. It's an original concept that will make some people go huh?
5. It has a stupid name. "Newton Vs The Horde"

Got some nice reviews though. 4/5 stars from Xbox Hornet.

[zukalous]

Maybe XBLIG is the right size. I think there needs to be a "farm" system that is there to help people who have never made a game before get something out there.

I like the idea of newgrounds but the games aren't really for sale. You get an advertising share right? Mods serve the same purpose but they are rarely for sale.

I will be publishing my first game through XBLIG/APP hub soon so we will see how happy I will be when it goes live. However, I am glad XBLIG exisits.

[zircon]

We've had the opposite problem (kinda). Decent conversion rate of about 10-11% but barely even 100 sales, despite some very favorable reviews. It's pretty depressing after about a year of work. We chalk it up to graphical style and game genre primarily, since it seems like the problem is getting people to even bother to try (no hook?) but once they do, they enjoy it.

Either way, we won't be doing XBIG again.

[XRA]

I kind of wish the payment system on XBLIG was different.. I know it is a bit of a dream and unreasonable, but the thing that I find happens most is I try the trial version due to a game looking interesting, play it for the time limit and then I'm like "hmm i dunno".. my curiosity has been satisfied but I might not feel totally sold to buy it, and I might not even really think I'd go back to play it again, so I just go back to doing other things..
for XBLIG it makes more sense if it were (somehow) able to be like an arcade, where you can drop a credit that has some very low MSpoint value, to play a game.. I'd be much more likely to drop another credit to continue playing for a bit longer had I just died or found the game challenging, but not because of my playtime getting cut short by the time limit nag.
Then if your total credits dropped to a game hits the purchase value you basically get free play on the game because you've essentially bought it.  
I think having a system like that would see more money going towards indies on there... but even then the problem to occur would be download times and getting people to first download your game... you still can't get the impulsive "i've got a credit i'll just drop it in and play real quick" decisions that arcades were wonderful for.