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[Alex May]

Can you be more specific?

I don't think specific aspects of contracts should necessarily be illegal because that would restrict everyone's freedom to make deals unnecessarily.

I meant, can you be more specific about why Nicalis has acted unfairly?

They are free to go and create more games if they like. Perhaps they signed away their game IP to Nicalis - in that case if they are upset with the job being done it is relatively easy for them to walk out the door and create their next great game on their own. If you are aware of Nicklas having signed a contract that says he cannot quit his job at Nicalis, I would say that you should report this to the authorities as that is definitely illegal.

As far as I know, Nifflas doesn't have a job at Nicalis beyond making Night Game for them. (I have no idea if/how he is paid- if it's treated like a Nicalis project which Nifflas is paid for working on, or if it's treated like a Nifflas project that Nicalis has bought from him to publish.) He certainly isn't required to make more games for them- he made Saira independent of Nicalis and it's self-published rather than published by Nicalis.

Great, so no problem there then.

Art is in the execution, not where it can be viewed. Night Game will likely be a better game than Nicklas could ever have created alone.

The trick is that Nifflas was working on Night Game (with Chris Schlarb) for several months before Nicalis became involved with the project.

I do not see how that is relevant - he had full control over it then, he still has something resembling full control over it now.

[Perrin]

I'm really having a hard time with all the anti-Nicalis stuff on this and the other thread. Essentially it's a publisher that has signed some indie games so the creators can make some money off their creations. Not every indie is so commercially minded but clearly the makers of Night Game, Cave Story and La Mulana are interested in that money and so made the deals they did.

None of the stuff leveled against Nicalisa sounds unethical to me, while you might not like their decisions all of it makes a lot of business sense to me. Asking people to remove youtube videos, not wanting your IP in some other person's game, choosing a single platform where you think you'll make the most money. If I was in their position I probably wouldn't have made those decision but I can see and understand why they'd be made.

To be honest I think TIGSource feels snubbed because they weren't allowed characters in Indie Brawl and because their Huzzah meme has been taken away from them. But it amazes me that people are acting like it's evil corporation syndrome and the original creators are just innocent bystanders out of control.

I find it hard to believe the maker of Night Game has really been screwed on this contract, he may have wanted a PC port but I imagine he'll be paid for the WiiWare version what was agreed. And really if you get a contract and you don't know what you're signing, DON'T SIGN IT. Inexperience is no excuse there. If you're going to be a commercial indie you need some business sense or somebody to advise you who does.

[bento_smile]

I agree with Perrin. I don't see what the fuss on this contract is, especially considering how little is known.

Also...

Rational adults don't sell intellectual property every day

Don't get a job in any creative industry then. 

[googoogjoob]

Googoogjoob, it sounds as though you ought to be upset at Nifflas. He is the one who chose to sign it away to a publisher including the PC game rights. It sounds as though you just have a very strong sense of entitlement. If you believe in Nifflas, why can't you respect his decision to work with Nicalis? Working with them hasn't stopped him from making further PC games, as has been shown, and his game hasn't been compromised either.

I'm not upset at Nifflas but I am sort of disappointed in him. I can respect his decision to work with anyone he wants, but I am not okay with the other party apparently taking advantage of him.

Actually I think he was apologizing for not revealing that it would be wii exclusive earlier which he couldn't because of still being in negotiations.

He made a point of promising that he would release at least one future game on PC to make up for his biggest game yet not being on PC.

I meant, can you be more specific about why Nicalis has acted unfairly?

I think it is unfair that Nicalis actually bought two games from their creators, neither of whom had sold their games before (rather than just licensing them). Also, the fact that Nifflas at least is not allowed to speak about his relationship with Nicalis, or even about the game itself, without Nicalis's permission.

I find it hard to believe the maker of Night Game has really been screwed on this contract, he may have wanted a PC port but I imagine he'll be paid for the WiiWare version what was agreed.

It wouldn't be a PC port. The game is made in MMF2 and is thus PC-native. The Wii version is the port.

Also: ultimately, about some of these things, it's not the decisions that are the problem ultimately, but the fact that the decisions remain unexplained, and not even commented on by Nicalis. (As far as I know, Nicalis hasn't made any statements regarding DC's videos being taken down, or about Night Game's PC version being cancelled, or about why two noncommercial fan projects (Indie Brawl, the DS port of Cave Story) were refused permission, while other, similar instances (Gang Garrison 2, the PSP port of Cave Story) are allowed.)

I really, honestly do not think Nicalis is evil. But, I do think Nicalis has a tendency towards secrecy that makes dealing with them (as a consumer) frustrating, and that a lot of apparent unethicality on Nicalis's part could be explained (reasonably or not) with more openness. Nicalis's public relations have been very one-sided. They put out ads and features and stuff about their games, but then don't respond to the public so much.

Rational adults don't sell intellectual property every day

Don't get a job in any creative industry then. 

Pixel and Nifflas both still have full-time jobs outside of the creative industry, don't they? Certainly neither of them sells art regularly.

[PlayMeTape]

Actually I think he was apologizing for not revealing that it would be wii exclusive earlier which he couldn't because of still being in negotiations.

He made a point of promising that he would release at least one future game on PC to make up for his biggest game yet not being on PC.

Yes but my point was that it sounds as if he was aware of it not being released on PC if he signed a contract with Nicalis but he could not discuss this openly while in negotiations for obvious reasons.

[googoogjoob]

Actually I think he was apologizing for not revealing that it would be wii exclusive earlier which he couldn't because of still being in negotiations.

He made a point of promising that he would release at least one future game on PC to make up for his biggest game yet not being on PC.

Yes but my point was that it sounds as if he was aware of it not being released on PC if he signed a contract with Nicalis but he could not discuss this openly while in negotiations for obvious reasons.

He signed the contract with Nicalis in or around February 2008, but when he announced the decision (in February 2009), he said it had been made recently.

[Perrin]

I find it hard to believe the maker of Night Game has really been screwed on this contract, he may have wanted a PC port but I imagine he'll be paid for the WiiWare version what was agreed.

It wouldn't be a PC port. The game is made in MMF2 and is thus PC-native. The Wii version is the port.

Also: ultimately, about some of these things, it's not the decisions that are the problem ultimately, but the fact that the decisions remain unexplained, and not even commented on by Nicalis.

You really picked the least important thing I said, port was simply the wrong word to use. But the native version means nothing. Lot of 360 games are developed on PCs and could easily have a PC version but they make a business decision about which platform is best for commercial reasons. It being PC-native is entirely irrelevant to anything.

Again in terms of transparency, I like it when companies are open but that's not the case in most area of any publishing industry. Keep everything under lock and NDA is the default position. it's great when companies don't act that way but I would find it hard to hold it against Nicalis for maintaining the status quo.

[Hayden Scott-Baron]

Googoogjoob, it seems that you've been banging this drum for more than a year on this forum, and you're not actually interested in the opinion of people here, many whom are professional developers that deal with publishing and IP contracts every day.  

Developers are frequently restricted from talking about their projects without permission, and it's normal to not be able to speak about their contracts. I'm sure you've been told this a hundred times.

So, you basically have a sense of entitlement to have a PC version of the game, especially because you are very hung up on the use of MMF2 to make the levels. I would imagine Nicalis are less forthcoming with news about Night Game because of your malicious and misinformed witchhunt against them.

edit: link to Googoogjoob banging on about the same topic 13 months ago.

[Lurk]

Googoogjoob- It was a good opportunity and he took it. It doesn't really matter that much that he shifted platforms along the way, especially from pc to wii; I doubt anyone bought a pc to play Night Game specifically. Nifflas is indie enough to apologize personally to the fans he perceived he slighted by making the move; you should be all 'oh but I really wanted to play a pc version  ' and then, 'oh well, can't wait to see what it looks like on wiiware '.

[Alex May]

I meant, can you be more specific about why Nicalis has acted unfairly?

I think it is unfair that Nicalis actually bought two games from their creators, neither of whom had sold their games before (rather than just licensing them). Also, the fact that Nifflas at least is not allowed to speak about his relationship with Nicalis, or even about the game itself, without Nicalis's permission.

NDAs are standard in most business relationships. Aside from that, you're simply wrong; it's not unfair.

[Oddball]

edit: link to Googoogjoob banging on about the same topic 13 months ago.

Only 89 people have signed that petition in over a year. Doesn't look to me like there was much demand for a PC release so I guess Nicalis made the right choice to cut their loses on the PC and concentrate on WiiWare version only.

[googoogjoob]

Googoogjoob, it seems that you've been banging this drum for more than a year on this forum, and you're not actually interested in the opinion of people here, many whom are professional developers that deal with publishing and IP contracts every day.

There's a difference between being interested in the opinions of others and being converted to the opinions of others.

So, you basically have a sense of entitlement to have a PC version of the game, especially because you are very hung up on the use of MMF2 to make the levels. I would imagine Nicalis are less forthcoming with news about Night Game because of your malicious and misinformed witchhunt against them.

I'm not in any position to stage a witch-hunt, and as far as I can tell Nicalis has entirely ignored me (or at least not acknowledged me or my positions).

edit: link to Googoogjoob banging on about the same topic 13 months ago.

Only 89 people have signed that petition in over a year. Doesn't look to me like there was much demand for a PC release so I guess Nicalis made the right choice to cut their loses on the PC and concentrate on WiiWare version only.

Surely far more people would sign a petition asking for there to be a Wii version if it were PC exclusive.

I'm sorry if I am being too vindictive here or expecting too much. I don't want to be mean and I'm not upset or angry at any people, but at the impersonal actions of a faceless corporation (which are much easier to be upset with). The general feeling among the tightest members of the Nifflas community is that Nifflas got ripped off. I don't actually care about the PC version of Night Game anymore- it's been two and a half years since the game was announced, and Nifflas has released another major game since and is already working on yet another project.

So: I realize I'm probably wrong regarding the unfair stuff and whatever, since I'm coming into this from a different perspective. But I'm still disappointed, and I still think Nicalis has made some serious PR fumbles.

[Widget]

Developers are frequently restricted from talking about their projects without permission, and it's normal to not be able to speak about their contracts. I'm sure you've been told this a hundred times.

This was one of the most significant things I took from this thread. Nicklas has limited freedom to discuss his project since he signed the contract so we just don't know the full story. As mentioned (frequently) earlier in the thread, this isn't an unusual requirement for a publisher to require. The main difference is that the indie community (or, more accurately, parts of it) have taken a lot of pride in not doing business this way. I'll happily and freely admit that these kinda business practices frustrate me but they're inevitably gonna turn up as the line between indie and mainstream continues to blur.

In the case of La Mulana and Cave Story, the games are iconic so having "the industry" make an impact on their direction is inevitably gonna get some people's hackles up. As for Night Game, I think a lot of people (myself included) end up feeling pretty hyper-protective of Nicklas since he's such a nice guy. I don't mean to imply the other developers Nicalis is working with aren't nice guys, of course, I just haven't had any contact with them.

While the (frequent) close contact between developers and the playerbase within the indie scene can make us (erm... us players, that is) feel we have a very personal involvement in the process of getting a game to "market", it's the people creating the games who have the decisions to make... and even if those decisions do turn out to be mistakes in the end, they were the developers' choice to make.

[BMcC]

The worst I can say about Nicalis is they don't seem totally in tune with the indie community/hardcore fans... but that's far overshadowed by the fact that they care enough to bring these games to a console and a new audience.  I'm not aware of (and seriously doubt) anything shady going on here.  People can speculate about this or that, but what's clear, I think, is they're doing a lot of good!

[CiroContinisio]

But at least EVERYTHING about La Mulana wii so far looks AAAWEEESOOOOMMMEEE.

I've seen a trailer today and the music is TERRIBLEEE.

[Eclipse]

But at least EVERYTHING about La Mulana wii so far looks AAAWEEESOOOOMMMEEE.

I've seen a trailer today and the music is TERRIBLEEE.

Agreed, Nicalis fails at doing music. La-Mulana had an awesome soundtrack and watching the new trailer made me think if the music if from the same guy that ruined cave story one

[Eclipse]

Also to clarify one thing:

NIGHT GAME IS NOT MADE WITH MMF2

The original PC version was, and as in Knytt, Nifflas used custom binary files to save the levels, so the Wii version of the game just reads those files. I think Nifflas just uses MMF2 as a level editor.
MMF2 doesn't support WII so the game is not made with MMF2

[TwilightVulpine]

None of the stuff leveled against Nicalisa sounds unethical to me, while you might not like their decisions all of it makes a lot of business sense to me. Asking people to remove youtube videos, not wanting your IP in some other person's game, choosing a single platform where you think you'll make the most money. If I was in their position I probably wouldn't have made those decision but I can see and understand why they'd be made.

I agree that this Nicalis bashing is going too far(I'm talking about you googoogjoob).

I believe the YouTube video removal would be unethical, but the videos are still there, so it either didn't happen or was reverted, so it doesn't matter.

However, not wanting the characters of an originally freeware indie game in a freeware indie crossover and stopping a game from Nifflas from being published in the it was originally intended for, which is the platform of all previous Nifflas' games and thus the most common plataform among Nifflas' fanbase, show lack of community awareness.

The worst I can say about Nicalis is they don't seem totally in tune with the indie community/hardcore fans... but that's far overshadowed by the fact that they care enough to bring these games to a console and a new audience.

I'm not sure. The community is very important in the marketing of indie games. If the community doesn't show a positive response, the games will having a harder time to compete with other numerous Wiiware games. Word-of-mouth gets more important by the day.

[Sos]

is googoogjoob nifflas?

[curby]

Guys, stop being massive pricks. You're better than this. Dock's response was pleasant and measured. Observe and emulate.

(written before appearance of googoogjoob's post, which I haven't read)


EDIT: Rudolf's post was also pleasant + measured.

The hypocrisy in this post is astounding