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[bvanevery]

Because that's getting old really quick.

The only reason is that you seem to be making unilateral statements that "x should do this or make that", and not "i'd prefer that x does this or make that".

Didn't you get this sort of thing out of your system in college?  You're going to waste a lot of people's time if you're always calling them out for not saying "IMO" every 4th sentence.

For instance, in the Minecraft thread,

Here are some good ways to derail a thread:

• start talking about someone's style, rather than the topic of the thread
• start talking about some other thread
• start talking about how you weren't satisfied with someone's style in another thread

You're turning this into a grind.  Let's talk about grinds rather than demonstrating one.

[bvanevery]

Trainer will show you how. But using magic on a train yard is one thing, and using it in a field with your life on the line is completely different thing.
In order to bring control of magic energies on a level sufficient to cast higher level fireball, one need some real practice.

You could separate fireball generation from combat stress.  A newbie wizard might do a great job making super-hot fireballs in a lab, due to his deep understanding of the physics.  However, the newbie wizard might have a lot of trouble doing the rituals when an arrow is whizzing by his head.  The Thief games implemented this sort of thing with a bow.  You have to hold the mouse button to pull the bowstring back.  You have to hold it back a certain amount of time to get any pull.  However, you can't hold it indefinitely; the bow starts to shake and you end up dropping your bow.  Having to hold the mouse button down somewhere between "too little" and "too much" creates combat stress.  Especially when zombies are closing in on you and you're running out of room to stand back and shoot.  Where's Legolas when you need him?

p.s. most games are not about 'realistic/unrealistic'. It's more about 'fun/not fun'

You asked whether what you proposed is a grind or not.  This was my way of telling you, yes what you proposed is a grind.  Why did you think it could possibly be otherwise?  Advancing statistics to reach some new threshold in the absence of underlying causality is a grind.  So my suggestion to you, is to think about where your fireballs are actually coming from.

[Xecutor]

You asked whether what you proposed is a grind or not.  This was my way of telling you, yes what you proposed is a grind.  Why did you think it could possibly be otherwise?  Advancing statistics to reach some new threshold in the absence of underlying causality is a grind.  So my suggestion to you, is to think about where your fireballs are actually coming from.

IMO Grinding is effortless way to make some progress in the game.
In many cases it's skill/time tradeoff.
I'm proposing system where you need to put some effort into leveling.
Where is the line that separate grinding from non-grinding activities in a game?
If this is an action-rpg game, for example, you kill monsters anyway.
Killing monsters is part of the game.
Many MMOs have 'kill x things' kind of quests. So these games are apriory 'grind-enabled'?
What if x is 3 and monsters are really tough? Is this still grinding?
What is the difference in killing x monsters to get access to next location and
killing the same x monsters to level up skill or complete quest?

[Landshark RAWR]

I like the idea of increasing your characters abilities by pushing them beyond their limits, although it COULD make leveling too easy without being told how to level as a prerequisite for gaining the level.

BACK TO THE SINGLEPLAYER VERSUS MULTIPLAYER

World Of Warcraft is a primarily multiplayer game, it was made that way, thats why people tend to play in groups because most of the content requires it. Even so if you are doing something that can be done alone, like a few quests, you can be rewarded by getting said quests done faster and easier by playing in the group.

Most Massivly MULTIPLAYER Online Role Playing Games are based around this fact anyways.


Then Dungeons And Dragons Online came out, even with the options to play alone, it became much easier(or optionally harder) to play through the various dungeons, because it is still mainly based around the multiplayer aspect.

I don't really know of any MMORPGs that wont eventually just get really boring from playing alone anyways.

[bvanevery]

Many MMOs have 'kill x things' kind of quests. So these games are apriory 'grind-enabled'?

Yep.

What if x is 3 and monsters are really tough? Is this still grinding?

X typically starts at 10, in my experience.  Then it typically progresses non-linearly, such as 10, 50, 100, 200, 400.  Much like classic AD&D required massively more experience to make it to the next level of character ability, the games typically require massively more monsters killed to get a grind quest reward.  The rewards don't necessarily get that much better either.  Perhaps the mechanic here is to try to keep the quests from being infinitely profitable.  I've often seen that once you kill 400 monsters, there's no more bounty for them.  Or, once you pass a certain character level, you cannot get experience for them.  This keeps level 9 characters from harvesting level 3 monsters over and over again.

What is the difference in killing x monsters to get access to next location and
killing the same x monsters to level up skill or complete quest?

None.  Bounty quests typically pay you for things you were going to do anyways.

Actually there is a difference: the pay rate for killing the monsters.  Do you get experience for it?  In some games you do not, unless it's part of a quest.  Do you get item drops from it?  Do you get a special item for killing some large X?

[RCIX]

Because that's getting old really quick.

The only reason is that you seem to be making unilateral statements that "x should do this or make that", and not "i'd prefer that x does this or make that".

Didn't you get this sort of thing out of your system in college?  You're going to waste a lot of people's time if you're always calling them out for not saying "IMO" every 4th sentence.

For instance, in the Minecraft thread,

This is not college, or even the real world. You have to be fairly explicit in your posts to convey the intended meaning (since this is text, and , and if you leave out the "IMO" part and just state what you think as fact you come off as an arrogant troll who has nothing better to do than start a few flamewars for the lulz. Sorry we can't all magically understand what you mean, but that's how it works. Read this article, which might help you understand.

I'm more than happy to give you the benefit of the doubt, especially since you seem to have indicated that you're posting your opinions and not trying to start a flamewar. However, from the attitude of your posts so far, you ARE coming off as rude, and i DO bet it will get you banned someday, possibly soon.

[FatHat]

But many people quit this types of games because of the boredom of grinding. Could there be a balance that would allow both kind of players to enjoy these games?. Is there a better alternative to grinding that will satisfy the need for profit?.

Yes.



(wait, you wanted more than a snarky non-answer?)



Grinding is the wrong way to think of it. When we talk about grinding, what we're really talking about is a variable reward schedule mixed with simplistic mechanics. Like a slot machine. You press a button/pull a lever and maybe something good comes out. Really, they're basically the same thing. Who doesn't like slot machines? Here's the thing, you can have a casino with poker tables and slot machines at the same time. They can coexist. Nobody thinks that's weird. Why can't you have a video game like that? I don't know if anyone's actually done it, but it seems plausible to me, for the same reasons casinos seem to work.