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[Evan Balster]

Gentlemen.  

Myself and two others have the start of a decent game on our hands and the means to put it together at a fairly quick pace; we're a team of specialists and as such I've got high expectations for zero-budget development.

It's a relatively simple game which exhibits lots of potential for online play and has already proven itself worthy as a hotseat experience with a diverse set of players.  (The networking code is already in and works quite well!)  I expect my team to be able to make significant progress elevating it from competence to impressiveness in a matter of a few months.  So, I reason, we'll resolve right now to point ourselves sternly in the direction of one or more of the "big three" consoles.

An easy commercial model for the game itself is limiting it to single-player and charging something on the order of five dollars to enable online play.  Blue sky, I'd like to make enough to support the team in developing future games--to go fulltime indie.


But I'm uncertain about a few things and I'd like some advice.

First is the console market.  It's a puzzle to me, but I reason a sufficiently polished product (that has been ported properly) ought to sell itself in terms of getting onto digital distribution networks.  Still, I imagine that like anything else those processes have all kinds of unexpected nuances; what better place to ask about them than here?  What should I do?  What should I look out for, and what should I know?

Second is revenue and business structure.  This is informal right now, and the project is a more or less even-grounds collaboration.  De facto, we'll probably try to set up a system for equal royalties.  If the team's warm to the idea after working together a while, though, I'd like to talk about trying to make a company and allocating it some funding of its own so we can have some kind of budget for future projects.  I'm not sure if this is necessary or not.  I've also heard warnings about "mutually-owned" projects, but I'm not sure whether to worry; does anyone care to repeat them here?  (Notably, the team seems stable; our largest concern is fitting our respective workloads into our schedules.)

Third would be marketing, but we have a good pool of resources here for that.  I'm inclined to make the game entirely free on PC platforms, if anyone has thoughts on that.


Anyway.  I'm standing at the head of all this and feeling a touch nervous is the main reason I've piped up at all.  A mad dash; with luck maybe we won't fall flat.

[Booger]

Take my advice with a grain of salt, since I do not have sufficient experience, but I would target the 'easy' console platforms first, namely:

iOS
XBLIG
PSP Minis

Relative difficulty of entrance in that order, since in my region the only one open is the Apple App ecosystem.  I've read that you don't need concept approval for PSP Minis, but you do have to go through PEGI/ESRB (which the other two don't), so if you are capable of making PSP Minis, chances are you'll be accepted by Nintendo for Dsiware/Wiiware as well (Since Nintendo, being the most 'innovative company', has the biggest requirement hurdle for indie developers to overcome, namely a 'secure office location' and incorporated entity)

If you're not yet proven, try to build a fanbase with those entry points, then hopefully you'll get enough clout and eventually be invited for the main XBLA / PSN  and Wiiware.  Unfortunately the economics of those ecosystems suggest you can only charge 99 cents for your game, but as you said you have an awesome zero-budget methodology.

Regarding splitting up royalties, I suggest one person take full responsibility and just pay the other team members their cut.  Just treat everything as out-of-pocket personal expenditures and income and don't set up an official company until you're actually successful.

[Evan Balster]

The game's play model actually works rather well on mobile devices, (where an accelerometer is present to replace the joystick) even taking into account the poor network latency of broadband systems.  Getting the graphics to downscale would be a bit of work, but it'd be quite possible.  Still, though.  This is a multiplayer-oriented game and I've got a lot of reservations about going for mobiles from the get-go.

I'd be all over XBLIG, but the code's written in C++ and I'm less than dazzled at the idea of reprogramming my system for a small and stigmatized market like that.


My real hope, as I've said above, is that we can polish this thing we've got enough that it will speak for itself.  But perhaps it's not that simple...

[LemonScented]

It's not that simple.

First, you'll need to set up the company as a proper legal entity. You'll need to hire accountants and lawyers, need to work out who the company directors are, all that stuff. You will need an office, with proper insurance.

Then you need to put together a demo, along with a bunch of marketing material, and start courting the major publishers. That might be Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo directly, but there's also a good chance it'll be one of the third party ones (EA, Ubisoft, Take Two etc). If you successfully pitch the project to a publisher, and sign all the contractual stuff about milestones and royalties, then and only then do you (or the publisher) get to speak to one or more of the console companies to get a devkit for you. Then as the game gets near to being done, you've got the whole gauntlet of the TRC/TCR to run...

AFAIK, console manufacturers won't even really talk to game developers unless they're a proper company, signed to a publisher, with secure and insured office building to keep the devkits in. It's possible, I guess, but definitely not a very indie way of getting a game out...

[speeder]

Note: Sometimes Sony DO talk with indies, but you need a company anyway.

I can say that because I did had some talk with Sony in the past (although unfortunately I had to drop the project, and since they never talked with me again).

[Evan Balster]

It seems like a small company could do without an accountant.  As for legal consultation, only a small amount ought to be necessary to begin with.  I've got a few family members who might be able to help.

Getting attention aside, it's the office that's the kicker.  Do Microsoft and Sony both really require a physical facility?


And regarding publishers, I don't think any of the team's in a mood to stick a hand in that mousetrap.

[LemonScented]

It seems like a small company could do without an accountant.  As for legal consultation, only a small amount ought to be necessary to begin with.  I've got a few family members who might be able to help.

Getting attention aside, it's the office that's the kicker.  Do Microsoft and Sony both really require a physical facility?

And regarding publishers, I don't think any of the team's in a mood to stick a hand in that mousetrap.

I guess you can do without an accountant to start with. But it's likely that any dealings you do with a publisher or a console manufacturer are going to involve money somewhere along the line. Devkits cost thousands of <insert currency of choice> each, for instance. The TRC process is likely to cost much more as well (which is why you won't be able to develop a console game on a zero budget, which is why it's good to talk to someone, publisher or otherwise, about investment).

The thing about devkits is that the console manufacturers are pretty paranoid about handing them out. They don't want them to fall into "the wrong hands" to be used for "nefarious purposes" or whatever, so security is kinda an issue for them. Whilst I vaguely recall Microsoft saying that they'd sent kits to residential homes for certain extraordinary developers, and I've heard anecdotal evidence of people in the industry taking kits home to work from home for specific things (almost certainly without the console manufacturer's permission), it's very much the exception and I'd be surprised if it happened at all. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, the exception to this is likely to be PSP devkits, since Sony have tried to become a lot more "open" about the PSP Minis stuff, specifically to attract smaller developers.

Re: Publishers. I vaguely recall hearing that although Jonathan Blow managed to get Braid published via Microsoft Game Studios, MSG have since basically stopped considering games for XBLA unless there's already a third-party publisher onboard. I could be wrong with that, and I have no idea what Sony or Nintendo's current policies are, so your mileage may vary, but the point is that it seems incredibly difficult for an indie company without a proven track record or a publisher to get their attention.

[Evan Balster]

Well, this is definitely a lot more difficult than expected, then.  I heard vague statements to the effect that XBLA's the hardest to get into by a wide margin, followed by Wii, followed by PSN.  Is anyone familiar with the particular differences there?

[synapse]

What's the business model?

Why go console if it has good online play?  Console has the highest startup costs of any platform - the web has the lowest.  Host your own site or put it on Facebook.  If virtual goods works as a model, do it.

[twistedjoe]

Nintendo's kit are probably the easiest to get and they cost only 2000$ (well the prices are variable, it depend on the size of your company, but it start at 2000$)

You still got to find a publisher to get your games on wiiware after it's finished (forget retail if you don't have a solid portfolio), BUT it is way more easy to convinced a publisher with a finished product. So this could be a good start...
http://www.warioworld.com/ (official dev relation website for nintendo)

Microsoft don't give much detail about their kits, you got to contact them (prices and profit cut are highly variable, nothing is stated on their website, you got to contact them directly or go through a publisher....
Search this website for XBLA dev relation contact info -> http://www.xbox.com/en-US/Community/Developer/RegDev


Sony, well, I can't tell for them, but except for the psp mini you should forget it until you get a lot of money......a lot....

BUT if you still want to try your luck here is the sony dev relation website (America, if your are in Europe or elsewhere google it...) https://www.tpr.scea.com/AreaNewLicensee/MainSystem/CFModules/ScreenLayout/nl_master_template.cfm

[twistedjoe]

found this on a slide from GDC 07

For Independent Developers:
-Work with Arcade Portfolio Planning team ([email protected]) to determine whether your title is a good fit and to iron out the business details.
-NDA
-Submit Concept Submission Form & Materials
-Playable Demo goes a long way!

And remember, NEVER shoot your games ideas or documents before they made you sign an NDA. Throwing documents right away is not professional, and they will hate you (for legal reason). Just say them you got a project and you want to know how to proceed from there.

Good luck....you will need it.....

[Booger]

Console has the highest startup costs of any platform - the web has the lowest. 

I actually realized this recently.  Use the web to your advantage to go viral and make the game popular... THEN publishers will be contacting you instead of you begging from them.  What I'm finding now are many games which are just coming out on consoles (heck, even hidden object games), had their run already on the PC.  It's because they proved to be popular and make money, that's why they're on console now.

I'm just making my game in native 720p and compatible with Xbox 360 gamepad and Dualshock 3 (not official drivers -- this is a gray area).  I playtest it on my laptop hooked up to my HDTV.  Besides the additional wires, it feels like I'm playing a console game.  No biggie.

Regarding the general discussion, I didn't know that XBLA was tough (maybe that's why they tried to go hush hush on XBLIG).

I would keep an eye out for AppleTV and GoogleTV -- in 2 years you'll probably see bigger apps made in iOS or Android that works for the bigger screens.

[twistedjoe]

I didn't know that XBLA was tough

Yep, they don't wan't it full of shovelware, it ruins the market, look at the app store, wiiware/dsiware store.

[Evan Balster]

Thanks for the advice so far.  I'm going to try and do a bit of personal research to build on what I've learned here.  (If you have anything to add, though, definitely speak up!)

I'll see this through. 

[SaturnineGames]

Well, this is definitely a lot more difficult than expected, then.  I heard vague statements to the effect that XBLA's the hardest to get into by a wide margin, followed by Wii, followed by PSN.  Is anyone familiar with the particular differences there?

From personal experience...

You're not likely to get anywhere with XBLA. You're going to get bounced around from person to person at MS, any details you give one person will get horribly distorted as it gets passed to the next. You're not likely to get anywhere, and if you do, it'll take a long time.

Nintendo basically cares that you have a commercial office, and that you have past experience working with similar platforms. They want handheld experience for DS developers or console experience for Wii developers. If you have that, you should be ok.

Sony is currently rather desperate for developers. At GDC that had developer info sessions where they practically begged people to develop for them. I don't know the details, but they have programs where developers can borrow dev kits while deciding whether or not to develop for the platform. They tend to respond quickly to applications, at least for PSP.

[jrk]

I would keep an eye out for AppleTV and GoogleTV -- in 2 years you'll probably see bigger apps made in iOS or Android that works for the bigger screens.

Yup, that's my hope, too. Even if you don't want to develop for Apple/Google TV the release of an easily accessible distribution platform for those systems might force the other console makers to open up their systems.

[BrianSlipBit]

I can only really speak to the Microsoft and 360 details.

Originally, 360 dev kits cost $10k.  It's possible that prices may have dropped by now? 

XBLA is by far the most competitive portal to get a game onto.  Back in the mid to late '08 time frame, I vaguely recall hearing something about an approximate 1 year back log on XBLA.  Meaning, they've hand selected the titles they want and have them all signed and lined up to go (dev may or may not be complete, but they're in the pipe).  My observations were that there's some flex in that, but it's usually only for "heavy hitters".

Also, taking dev kits home for development was never an issue.  It's been done for years.  As it has already been said, the real problem is getting a deal signed with Microsoft.

Lastly, getting an XLBA or retail 360 game through certification can also be expensive if you fail the first attempt and have to resubmit.  Localization, should you choose to do it, also costs a fair amount of money.  However, I believe it can be negotiated into the contract and they'll take money from the revenue to pay for its costs.

I've heard that Sony has an Indie program that allows you to retain rights to your IP. I'm not sure what their cut is?  I'm sure it's comparable to XBLIG/XBLA/Steam.  I can certainly see Sony as being "desperate".  I honestly have no clue how well PSN is really faring these days compared to XBLA.  My perception is that XBLA is dominating PSN.

Nintendo and the Wii.  I've got nothing for ya.

Advice?  If you're truly hell bent on being on the 360, then port to C#/XNA.  Otherwise, stick with your C++ codebase and leverage the multiple other platforms that are available (iOS, Android, PC).

[Evan Balster]

I'm not strictly hell-bent on the 360, though it's appealing.  I just knew more about it than the other platforms.

Though by now I've got a plan in the works, I think it would be appropriate to aggregate our combined knowledge on these matters somewhere.  Though, I guess de facto this very thread works well enough.

[The Bag]

Both MS & Sony would prefer people to go through other publishers because it drastically reduces the amount they have to do, but both will still take on projects and more importantly lend out dev kits.  It's not impossible, but it is hard and a lot of it probably comes down to who you talk to and what your history is.  As mentioned above, it's the cert process that kills, not just cost wise but time and effort - is the game taking too long to load, is there a non-interactive screen displayed for too long, are you communicating with the Live servers too often, are you sending too much network traffic, are you using the correct terminology when referring to the controller, when you display a gamertag is there a way of accessing the gamercard and on and on and on.  Bane of my existence at times.  But that's the price to be paid for launching on a console...

[Booger]

If GoogleTV and AppleTV will remain as open as their mobile counterparts, and include analog joystick peripheral support, the console market will be the next to be severely disrupted.  Cheaper mostly indie (at first) games that don't have to be rigorously certified are going to be very attractive... at least until the first parent complains that the $1 game their kid is playing is not officially rated or is a scam because it's capable or ringing up the credit card within the app.

With Kinect just being recently hacked to be a mocap studio on the cheap, I'm becoming more convinced of being able to make a full 3D game.

For next year, I'm starting to think a more appropriate topic title should be 'A mad dash away from the console market'.