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[baconman]

Well, how about it?

I think more manuevering options would carry a game like that pretty far, not unlike Mario's additional moveset from Donkey Kong '94. It would make the platformer sections far more fun and active than they are.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think the game was pretty fun but i think where it lacked was enemy variety. how many times did you fight a darknut in that game? or whatever they're called, the knight guys. probably 100 times, and each battle takes forever, and there are different colors of them but they all basically fight the same. more enemy types would go a long way to adding more variety

[moi]

make it a minecraft-like

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

also relevant:

fix the problems mentioned there

[eiyukabe]

I loved the darknut fights, they somehow felt epic despite the simplicity of their behavior.

The main weaknesses I remember from Zelda 2 came at the end. The long lava walk to the last palace, the last palace, and fighting the two last bosses was super hard and exhausting (even though you could crouch in the left corner to take down Shadow Link easily). I don't know, the last palace felt poorly designed compared to the rest. Some of the things you had to do to progress were a little arcane, like having to jump through an invisible wall to beat the (fifth?) palace.

And yeah, the platforming levels where you had to jump across cliffs over the sea while dodging bubbles/ghosts/etc were kind of frustrating.

[leonelc29]

enemy difficulty. DAMN YOU, DARKNUT!

i love the upper and lower attack and defense stuff, but it's WAY too hard when come to fight with those lizard guy and darknut, especially when the ceiling are way too low that you can't jump over the axe that cannot be blocked(yes, Death Mountain. James AVGN said this as well).

the problem with darknut i have is the blue one(and probably any darknut higher level than the blue one). Sometime, it continue attack in random pattern like it's going nut, and he always get me killed(he's not even a boss! well, he's a boss fight for once)...

More attack style from the enemy will be nice.

the control, not much to complain, since there's no enough button to use back in the day.

well, all in all, it's still a good game anyway. It's a nice platformer attempt by Nintendo.

[gimymblert]

also relevant:

fix the problems mentioned there

ocarina of time is basically zelda 2 in heart (shield gameplay, jump challenge, advance sword fighting, enemy that spawn on overworld map) so they fixed it, we know the result:

[Uykered]

lol, Ocarina of Time is a different genre. Just has the same theme.

[gimymblert]

You beat enemy with the sword, you explore the land to dungeon, there is village with people in it, instead of xp you have heart piece. Nintendo is a hipster: "action game in open world with rpg stat we did that in zelda 2 back in 87"

[Uykered]

Yes it has the same theme, its a different genre - it feels different to play.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah it doesn't make much sense to me to call OoT the most similar to zelda2, but OoT is also a different genre from zelda1 and zelda3 (the top-down zelda games); there's basically 3 zelda genres: top down, side-view, and 3d third person

and OoT had some similarities to zelda2 in that its swordfighting was more complicated and that it had a few platforming sequences, but it's not similar in that it has no jump button, there are no experience points or levels, and there's no spells to collect

and zelda2 had towns but so did zelda3 and zelda4; zelda2 had the most towns of any zelda game but they were all basically the same town with different building configurations and the people saying different things

in any case i don't think making zelda2 more fun would turn it into OoT; i think it's possible to make a fun side-scrolling zelda game that'd be more fun than zelda2, and i wish someone would give it a shot (maybe a remake of zelda2 similar to the streets of rage remake) -- and konjak's remake doesn't count since it was much more action-oriented than the zelda games are

[Landshark RAWR]

chibi knight plays like zelda2, although the sword combat is changed to be more hack'n slash, and dungeons are top down. This one has the platforming segments but they aren't nearly as difficult as in zelda2.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah ys3 is also similar to zelda2 (although also more action-oriented with less exploration) -- nonetheless i think ys3 (wanderers from ys) is the best game of that type

other examples of similar games are magician, swordmaster, castlevania 2, battle of olympus, etc. etc.

[gimymblert]

I don't your logic guys, mario 64 is not the same genre as regular mario?

Zelda 64 still have jumping challenge (mostly in dungeon) and you can jump with the z and action button (useful in fighting to get opening), the spell are here (naryu, farore, din, etc...) and the xp is basically the piece of heart, get 4 and you have a new level, it is streamlined to health and tie to quest only. The progression is similar and there and dark link make a return. If you were to make zelda oot a side-scroller you will have a zelda 2 really advance. Look no further that the deku tree to seek jump challenge. They basically automated the jump button because of 3D but the jump is still there and play important role, they simply move the control to context, previous zelda don't have jump challenge but zelda 2.

On contrary there was no jumping challenge in zelda 3 (but zelda GB had side-scrolling with complex battle with sword and shield)

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

mario64 is totally not in the same genre as the 2d mario games, but anyone who organizes them that way is entitled to their stupid opinion

i don't think you know what 'genre' means -- genre is camera angle (paraphrasing cliffyb)

of course there are multiple genres in the same camera angle, but for the most part different camera angle means different genre, 100% of the time

i wouldn't even call vertical shmups in the same genre as horizontal shmups (both are shmups, but they're different genres)

[gimymblert]

Sorry that's the sillyest of definition of genre I have ever heard, kudo to cliffyB! genre of camera yes, but not really genre of game. camera is often to mechanics that's may lead to some confusion.

BTW zelda 2 is not a sidescroller, there is also a top down view, or zelda gb is a sidescroller too (zelda 1 too) the only true top down zelda is the 3. 

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

zelda3 is a mix of top down and isometric perspectives though; some tiles are top down some are isometric

anyway it's the best definition of genre possible; camera angle changes everything about a game. take mario1 and make it a first person 3d game with the same exact levels and jumping and it's not a platformer anymore, it's a first person shooter (you shoot with the fire flower)

[_Tommo_]

Just do whatever Konjack did here

[DavidCaruso]

Super Mario World plays completely differently from Super Mario 64. Same with Super Metroid and Metroid Prime. Same with Sonic 3&K and Sonic Adventure. Same with Zelda II and Ocarina of Time. The brand name is just carried on in the designers' attempts to "transition" the series (create as good a 3D xxx as the originals were a 2D xxx).

Also a key thing here with Paul's example is that you couldn't even take the same exact levels and put them in 3D with SMB1; it's a sidescrolling 2D platformer, so you'd have to add more blocks on the sides, maybe change Z position of some objects, etc. And you would be playing the game a completely different way in the first person perspective; I wouldn't call it an FPS just because of the Fire Flower lol (it'd be more a "first person platformer" a la Mirror's Edge), but navigating platforms would become harder due to first person, as well as not being able to see blocks or enemies above you very well and having to look up, etc. Even if the first person perspective was replaced with a third person SM64-style one you'd still be playing a completely different game in a different genre, although with similar themes. You can't just magically convert a 2D genre into a 3D genre. (And by that I mean making a real 3D game, not a 3D game in which the extra dimension is basically used for graphical effect like NSMB or Pokemon B/W; games like that are essentially 2D and in the same genre as their predecessors).

[gimymblert]

yep but look at mario galaxy which derive from mario 64, it use the same control set between 2D and 3D segment, and all 3D segment are not alike, and what about nsmb who play like an evolution of mario 1 yet share its control with mario 64 and galaxy. Saying they play completely different is inaccurate, only challenge have been adapted to the new dimension.

edit: notice how in OOT they use the z targeting to lock you in a 2D plan