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Tumetsu
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« on: August 11, 2011, 03:14:52 AM »

I'm developing light RPG game which uses card based battlesystem. Emphasize is on building working decks to encounter different enemies in battle. Every enemy should be rather dangerous opponent and would require planning the deck carefully to exploit weaknesses of the enemy and avoid it's resistances.

To execute this I'll partially use elements familiar from quite a few RPG games. However, I think I need quite a few compared to what I right now have, and think some weakness/strength relations. So I decided to ask some suggestions here.

So far I have these elements:
Physical
Ice - Fire
Light - Dark

This is too few for my game IMO and should invent some more. Problem is that elements should be rather clear in their weakness/strength relations and probably pairs, though my system can very well handle larger relations like rock-paper-scissor likes. You can check the game's devlog for more info the game itself from my sig.

Also, elements do not need to be traditional like current one, and I have thought about colors too. Any ideas both general and detailed are welcomed.

What would make interesting element system?
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TobiasW
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 03:38:14 AM »

Maybe you could get some inspiration from the Pokémon type chart?
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Chromanoid
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 03:42:47 AM »

You could look at Wu Xing and similar philosophies.
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MadWatch
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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 04:28:07 AM »

Does it has to be elements ?

How about heavily shielded enemies being only vulnerable to heavy weapons attack that can break through their defenses (ax or hammer...) but invulnerable against lighter weapons. And the opposite, light weighted enemies who can easily evade slow attacks from heavy weapons but are vulnerable against lighter and faster ones.
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Tumetsu
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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2011, 06:44:12 AM »

Quote
Does it has to be elements ?
Not really. As I said in first post, it may pretty much be anything which utilizes system common for elements in rpgs.

@Chromanoid
That looks interesting! I have to study it a bit.

@TobiasW
I'm familiar with pokemon types and actually thought about drawing some inspiration from them. Thanks for link, that map is very useful looking.
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baconman
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2011, 02:33:12 PM »

A design I'm kind of aiming for revolves around a color-type system that I've discussed in a few similar threads to this one. Lighter colors indicate more healing/beneficial use-on-self-and-allies effects, and darker ones indicate a negative use-on-those-against-you connontation.

Red = raw HP/damage
Green = status ailment manipulation
Blue = statistic manipulation

So a healing spell for instance, would be pink; and a stat-manipulating attack spell would be more of a dark purple.
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Tumetsu
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« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2011, 07:26:15 AM »

I have been thinking this a bit now. Created this kind of RPS system:



Here new elements are Void and Nature. In picture arrows show which is strong against which.
Fire consumes nature, nature/plants drains water, water extinguishes fire, fire repels darkness, darkness fills the void, void absorbs light, light repels darkness.

Then the intersections of the outer elements with core elements:
Water fills void, void absorbs the heat, dark kills plantlife/nature, light/electricity beats water.

How balanced and logical this sounds? Personally i think it is rather logical, though Void is usually thought as most badass of all and water's strength against it may seem litlle strange. Another perhaps troubling one is light beating water, though I guess electricity can be associated to it. Also, in addition of these, there is also pure physical damage and defense.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2011, 09:37:49 AM »



no use this
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baconman
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2011, 10:01:32 AM »



no use this

 Facepalm


But no, seriously... that element system is pretty tight. I especially like how the inner trio goes in it's inverted direction, so it gives some weird sense of balance about it. For a simplified PokeMon style game/system, that's pretty spot on, and it makes sense, too.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2011, 11:22:33 AM »

THOSE IMAGE ARE MISLEADING

There is a representation and rules to calibrate that already! It let you balance arbitrary things





All you need to understand:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/rock-paper-scissors-in-strategy-games.html
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/06/Intuition-in-fighting-systems-more-moves-isn-t-always-better
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/04/Feedback-In-Game-Design
http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/01/game-theory-applied-to-game-design/

There is no magic
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2011, 11:43:38 AM »

how does a potato beat a shoe? i don't understand that
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moi
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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2011, 02:06:38 PM »

If you put the potato in the shoe, you can't wear the shoe and it might smell bad.
But how does a potato beat ...a hammer?
But I think the interest of the diagram is to show the array of relations, not he particular elements, you are free to try and find more interesting names for the elements.
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subsystems   subsystems   subsystems
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« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2011, 02:37:58 PM »

But how does a potato beat ...a hammer?
The potato aspired to become mashed potatoes.
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baconman
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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2011, 11:28:47 PM »

You really wanna go that route, look up RPS25 for the win. Don't say I didn't warn you though, it's excruciating.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2011, 12:07:41 PM »





Let's see the basic  Gomez



we need to go deeper  Gentleman




we need to go deeper    Noir



we need to go deeper   Cool



we need to go deeper   Ninja


http://umop.com/rps101.htm
http://www.kreativekorp.com/miscpages/rps/

we need to go deeper    Wizard




stop going deeper  Shocked



he need to go deeeeerpppp ....... OH SHI .....  WTF








« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 12:14:44 PM by Gimmy TILBERT » Logged

herror
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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2011, 05:08:16 AM »

*death by overawesomeness*
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Orymus
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2011, 09:19:39 AM »

That, my friend, was an awesome post.
I tip my hat to thee!
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randomnine
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« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2011, 03:49:00 PM »

Thread over.

...but no, seriously Smiley If you have too many elements, it'll just get confusing (see above). It doesn't matter how careful you are thinking it through... some of the relationships will be ambiguous. In your six-element system, both the inner trio and their relationship with the outer trio make no sense to me. It's obvious that "Light" is going to be good against "Dark", or possibly vice-versa, but how is "Void" different from "Dark"? Why do plants beat electricity? Wouldn't space kill plants?

As MadWatch says, a good way out of this quagmire is to break out of the one-dimensional rock-paper-scissors approach and work with multiple differentiating factors. For example, Disgaea has 6 ways to do well in attacks and 5 ways to do well defending, and different units are good in different ways.

(Attacking: high ATK for more damage, high range, high HIT (allows criticals, stops dodging), fast movement (allows flanking for more damage), Special Points (allows special attacks), high INT (more damage with magic spells).

Defending: high DEF for raw defence, high SPD to dodge, fast movement to run away, high RES to resist magical attacks/special attacks, high "Counter" to allow damaging counter attacks when attacked.)

The Starcraft series has multiple overlapping simple systems which allow for a wide range of unit types that interact in complex but largely intuitive ways. As a rough primer:

- A unit can be a ground unit or a flying unit. Air units can bypass terrain to gain advantages and can see up cliffs. On the flipside, many units' attacks only work against air, or only work against ground.

- A unit can be "Light", "Armored" or "Massive". Other units can have damage bonuses against certain classes. "Massive" units are immune to some abilities.

- Different units have more or less health for their cost. Conversely, different units do more or less damage over time for their cost.

- A unit has an armour value which is subtracted from attacks. High armour is effective against many small attacks, but makes little difference against few powerful attacks. Likewise, a unit can either attack rapidly but weakly, or it can attack powerfully but slowly.

- Units have movement speeds. A faster unit can run away from a slower unit. (Several units have 'snare' type abilities which prevent fast opponents from running away.)

- Units' attacks have ranges. A unit with higher range is able to get free hits on a unit with shorter range; if it's faster as well, then it can attack with impunity.

- Some unit attacks have splash damage, which is effective when fighting multiple small opponents but not when fighting single opponents or large opponents.

- Some units have shields and energy, which in turn make them vulnerable to special abilities which target shields and energy.

- Some units can cloak, which makes them immune to enemy units unless detected by one of a handful of specialist detector units.

- Some units can carry other units, temporarily making them highly mobile but weak and vulnerable.

- Units are classed as "Biological" or "Mechanical", making them vulnerable to certain abilities.

On top of all that, almost every single unit has a unique ability which interferes with the above mechanics in an interesting way.

The system as a whole seems complex... but in any given encounter between two unit types one or two of these factors will dominate, allowing one side to prevail for an intuitively obvious reason.

To bring this back to your system: consider allowing enemies to be "Physical" or "Ice" or "Fire" and "Light" or "Dark" and, say, "Fast" or "Tough" - where, say:

- Physical is strong against Water, which is strong against Fire, which is strong against Physical
- Physical is weak against Fire, which is weak against Water, which is weak against Physical
- Light is strong against Dark, Dark is strong against Light
- Light is weak against Light, Dark is weak against Dark
- Fast is strong against Fast, Tough is strong against Tough
- Fast is weak against Tough, Tough is weak against Fast

A particular enemy might be "Physical" and "Fast", meaning fire attacks and fast attacks are good against it, but tough attacks tend to miss... unless you use a spell or trap to stop the enemy moving around, temporarily stopping it from being Fast.

Another enemy might be "Dark" and "Fire", meaning Light attacks and Ice attacks are extra powerful but Dark and Physical attacks are weak.

A third enemy might simply be "Ice", meaning that physical attacks are strong, fire attacks are weak, but everything else is largely balanced.

Under a system like this, enemies would have one or more attributes. Your attacks, also, would have one or more attributes. You would have spells to counter certain attributes, eg. traps/snares to use against Fast enemies; dissolve spells to use against Tough enemies to weaken their resistance; a spell that combines *another* spell with a sword attack to make it Physical, or a "blessing" card that makes your next attack Light; a potion that makes you faster, so you can't be hit by a slow, tough enemy; a temporary shield, which fends off fast attacks but breaks against tough attacks...

The benefit of a system like this is that each dimension is simple and comprehensible by itself, but you can easily combine them in interesting ways to create a great range of different abilities and situations.
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Shackhal
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« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2011, 06:45:26 PM »

Are you considering the wind and the earth? They are elements too.

EDIT: OMG! So hilarious the post with the "real true"! Hahahahaha! Hahahahaha!!!....Oh dammit...my jaw...ouch...
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The Monster King
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« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2011, 08:08:49 PM »

Rock Paper Scissors is pretty much the basic thing of turn based games and possibly of all games. the interesting thing is not to have them all look differently but work the same (like in regular rock paper scissors up to that 101 version GTGTimmy TGTGilbert posted

what im saying is make em work differently make them have different rewards and punishments
just having FIRE and ICE but they do the same thing is boring!
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