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[crowe]

In breaking news, Bioshock series is disappointing narratively despite hints of promise

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i haven't played infinite but i found this article interesting: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/47313514087/bioshock-infinite-and-the-terrible-case-for-banning-all

also, if the message is just that 'ideologies taken to the extreme are bad' or 'racism is bad' -- are those really messages that need to be in games? aren't they common sense? usually ideas are supposed to be at least somewhat arguable. using a theme for your game that 99% of people would already agree with isn't particularly thought-provoking. i mean, sure there are a couple of wacky people who still believe that some races are superior to others, but they aren't likely to change their mind after playing a videogame

i like games where the theme is at least somewhat arguable. for instance, planescape's theme of how only experience can change a person's nature, or xenogears' theme of the essence of humanity being our weaknesses and need to protect one another, stuff like that

[s0]

also, if the message is just that 'ideologies taken to the extreme or bad' or 'racism is bad' -- are those really messages that need to be in games? aren't they common sense?

exactly my point. the political "messages" of the bioshock games are ultimately banal truisms and don't say anything specific about the ideologies/philosophies in question. i mean the fact that they managed to pull essentially the same trick 3 times in a row with 3 different ideologies (extreme liberalism, socialism and now american jingoism) is very telling.

I said it would be more nuanced, not thoughtful bioshock = ideology taken too far is bad (and the player is manipulated in some way about the truth), it is about idea taken to their extrems conclusion, it's tonal backdrop more than a thoughtful exploration

yes, that's the point of the article quote i posted lol. im not sure what to think about politics being used as a backdrop. it can be done well i guess, but i concur w/ the author of the article that bioshock seems to use it for some cheap thematic "depth" more than anything.

[s0]

o btw i dont want to too harsh on the bioshock games, i actually enjoy them. i just wanted to say something re: claims of narrative depth.

[Nillo]

i haven't played infinite but i found this article interesting: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/47313514087/bioshock-infinite-and-the-terrible-case-for-banning-all

I don't understand the point this guy is trying to make. At first he seemed to argue that Booker's violent journey through Columbia is justified, because they're racists, but then he turns around and says the game promotes racism? How does that make sense?

I think the game makes it pretty clear that there is no "good guy" in this scenario, aside from perhaps Elizabeth. Nearly all of the characters you encounter in Bioshock Infinite are flawed in some way, including Booker himself, and I like it that way.

also, if the message is just that 'ideologies taken to the extreme are bad' or 'racism is bad' -- are those really messages that need to be in games? aren't they common sense?

One thing that isn't always common sense is the issue of black-against-white racism. There are some people who believe that racism is a position of oppression against minorities and that black people can't be racists because of this. I think the Vox Populi are intended to be a counter-example in that regard (although taken to a rather brutal extreme).

[Blademasterbobo]

yeah all their stuff is so misguided because how could she kill that child ? ?!? ?! this is definitely gray morality and not a poorly written plot

protip, if you think the vox populi were actually bad people you're possibly racist

[Udderdude]

Ham-fisted morality?  In my vidyagaems?  It's more likely than you think.

[Nillo]

protip, if you think the vox populi were actually bad people you're possibly racist

The Vox go overboard in their revolution and kill far more people than they needed to in order to overthrow the Columbian government. They could have just killed the police force and/or military and called it a day, but there were plenty of scenes where you see the Vox round up unarmed white people and kill them.

[Blademasterbobo]

they had an explosive reaction to generations of indentured servitude? well obviously they deserve to be massacred

i mean jeez those people are just as bad as their oppressors how could they ? ? ?

*eyes rolling into back of skull*

[SundownKid]

Well the game seems like on the same line of spec ops and farcry 3. Kind of enough of this crap meta vibes. You are not only not the hero, you are the villain in some way, generally in denial, and the constant killing is heavily looked down across the scenario. The protagonist dies at the end. That's the new formula.

This is why I don't buy the whole "but Booker is a villain!" shtick. It's basically forcing you to act out the role of Booker and kill everyone, then bashing you over the head with how you're so "evil". Meanwhile, it doesn't let you talk to anyone, or take a non-violent way through, but still blames the main character for committing evil acts. It worked in Spec Ops because the game was a straight rip from a modern military shooter, so it had a good reason to gloat at players who bought it for the killing.

[gimymblert]

@CA sinclair
What Imeant is that bioshock is not necessarily trying to be smart, he is justbeging "nerdy". How that's different from typical vieo games scenario? Well most video games universe is about harmless non sensical fantasy universe, bioshock is no different but happen to be more nerdy in its real world reference, basically instead of referencing "tolkien" he reference "real world ideology". It could have been science fiction cyberpunk tropes instead of political tropes (system shock). I think the bigger question is: can video games explore other storytelling context than typical mascot/dudebro/fantasy universe? I mean COD is as nerdy about military context with all its quote and historical context, we don't say COD try to be intelligent. I think it a projection problem, and a growing up envy that plague evaluation of the bioshock series. I mean Levine literrally said he put art deco because he like it, his discourse about aynd rand is still very reminiscent of how we talk about how favaorite fantasy author. It's more in the line of visceral dante's inferno, not trying to be smart but trying to do something cool, bioshock is just a bit smarter than dante's inferno, that's all.

[s0]

I think it a projection problem, and a growing up envy that plague evaluation of the bioshock series. I mean Levine literrally said he put art deco because he like it, his discourse about aynd rand is still very reminiscent of how we talk about how favaorite fantasy author. It's more in the line of visceral dante's inferno, not trying to be smart but trying to do something cool, bioshock is just a bit smarter than dante's inferno, that's all.

i agree and i think we're largely on the same page. my posts and were mainly just an attempt to dispute the claims that BSI's narrative is "deep", "intelligent," "high art" etc, not so much to make a point about the wider issue of narrative in games which is a bit beyond the scope of this thread.

[crowe]

The worst thing about the Vox Populi is the writers tried to apply their boring IDEOLOGY TAKEN TO EXTREME IS ALWAYS BAD thing to slave revolts, which makes them either terrible people who know nothing about slave revolts throughout history and how they have played out or been depicted by their racist enemies (hint: as crazed murderers), or they're all racist.

Or both I guess.

[s0]

to be fair tho, michael haneke, who has just won an oscar and is commonly praised as a great director of "transgressive" films, did the same shit with peasant revolts in his movie the white ribbon. so yeah.

[Blademasterbobo]

bioshock more like slippery-slope-shock amirite

[gimymblert]

@vox populi
In the game I found the discourse a bit not as "black and white" as people are putting it. I mean the slave in the game are not racist, they don't attack people because they are white but because they are the upper class who imposed suffering on them. I mean they didn't turn on booker but use him as an icon. But maybe I missing some aspects. Vox populi is more like french revolution than slavery abolition (mostly because abolition was white and black common affair against slaver). The only place I think that is remotely similar is in guadeloupe (french caraibe) where they had executed all master family, but I guess this part of history doesn't even blip on most people radar no matter how educated they are on the subjects.