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[gimymblert]

If you think this how it is in those country at least watching one documentary would dispel the myth, and that's not even going deep.

[oodavid]

People shouldn't give a shit what others do in their personal lives, it's a fallacy of the stupidest order to criticise people for their alleged shortcomings. Anyone that Poisons-The-Well or even weighs in on the conversation should be very careful as they could be contributing a teeny-tiny amount of negative to that person. Lots of teeny-tiny can make a difference.

Imagine if every "insignificant" -ve comment, action or inaction a person does in their lives could be distilled into a single act? Then add up a niche group or nation... THAT my friends is how you end up with casual sexism/racism/anythingism and it's a sad state of affairs.

One of my favourite things about the TIGSource Forums is how ferociously balanced the users are (especially the mods), neutrality and devils-advocacy run rife. Viva!

[s-spooky g-g-ghosts]

If you think this how it is in those country at least watching one documentary would dispel the myth, and that's not even going deep.

Ever heard of human trafficking? I don't think they treat women like princesses there.

[Tazi]

The Zoe quinn case is inconclusive so far, there is more people that has meet zoe who like her that the contrary, and pretty much like everyone in life nobody can like you, especially jelly and salty boyfriend. The whole elements seems blow out of proportion because the mra frustation needed a target as they were loosing the argument battle. BTW if Zoe happen to be a bad person (tm) MRA are still worse by a long shoot, they are downright criminal. Let's not talk about the silence about yogcast from the mra, and many similar case, where did they go when those "cheating" happen, but no it's okay to harass if woman, remember women are object for men to act on.

I have nothing to do with "MRA people", the yogcast thing is also disgusting, but at least that was reported by newsites. Even by the crap ones like Kotaku. The main concern with Zoe was that despite the scandal, noone reported it, and it wasn't allowed to talk about it anywhere.

The "jelly and salty boyfriend" might committed an ugly revenge, but from what we know, Zoe still cheated him with those men, and those men seemed to be the same one who gave her a good review, a job, and an indiecade award for Depression Quest over Papers, Please. I don't think she had sex with those man for the advantages, and I don't even really care. I just hate the fact that having some connections means more in success then actually delivering a good game which is indie development allegedly about.
What about Phil Fish entering FEZ multiple times with the same game in a IGF, and winning multiple times? Not a big suprise, he has a friend in the jury. And then it turns out FEZ is just an okay game, with plenty of bad design choices, and nothing more. Sure, it deserved something for it's unique visual style. But multiple awards? Nah.
There are many more examples like this, not just indie, and it has the following message: "Reviews and awards are actually lobbyists work for self-promotion"

On totalbiscuit, he only get sympathy for disabling comments as internet toxicity is well known, and this is not the same as censorship, like anita pointed out, you can still make your own video and blog and discussion on your own public forums.

That's true, but that will result opinions and discussion scattered all over, I'd rather have discussions open, despide idiots sending threats.

On this video, anita has pointed solution: don't do it for pure shock value, some says gta is about crime, BO IT'S NOT, it's about empowerement, it does not say anything about crime, it's not a deconstruction and analysis of its mechanism, there is no analysis of the impacts it have on people life and on culture by large, it is just windows dressing a background theme. In fact you can mostly swap it without much damage. The other solution she point is simply empowerment, most game have women as object for men (either the player or the npc) to manipulate. In fact most of her solution are not women specific, it call for better writing and less cartoon use of serious trope tm. And there is so few game that do it right ... almost inexistant, if you can point to one? I can't. BTW I'm not sure "violence on women" can be done right in a game context, especially when women

I can mostly agree with that.

[gimymblert]

GAME site report SEX scandal, huh? That's tabloid and is not game related, plus she didn't exert authority by abusing her situation to the detriment to people (like sexual harrassement) so it's not a news. Breaking with a boyfriend should be not covered by gaming news!

The "jelly and salty boyfriend" might committed an ugly revenge, but from what we know, Zoe still cheated him with those men, and those men seemed to be the same one who gave her a good review, a job, and an indiecade award for Depression Quest over Papers, Please. I don't think she had sex with those man for the advantages, and I don't even really care. I just hate the fact that having some connections means more in success then actually delivering a good game which is indie development allegedly about.

If cliquiness is a the problem just leave Zoe out of that and discuss the whole problem, especially after dorito gate, and various problem that affect big company. Focusing and harassing just one person is just not good.

ON fez, it also happen at a time when the "indie" movement was conceptualize and was a small scene, a far cry from now. Those people put indie in the gaming map, that's a different situation, that we still have problem because the indie scene blew up into a legitimate large scene should be adress, but it worth remembering that cliquiness helpt them creating new business format, production process and the whole tools that are available to everyone. SO FEZ is much more that just a game, bad or good, it's also the symbol of the evolution of indie, from the non conceptualize past, to the conscious of identity to established market. It must evolve for sure, but let's remember the context.

[s0]

Well I've always thought that games featuring criminal environments were basing on reality especially from 3rd world countries. Fortunately it's just a misogynistic propaganda spread by those vicious small-penis frustrated developers. Thank god Anita opened my eyes.

I agree, it's really awful of those evil femisinazis to attack poor defenseless videogames. Not the devs' fault for simply depicting reality, geez. Trust me, I am an expert on organized crime, I have seen every episode of Breaking Bad and the Sopranos. GTA is practically a documentary.

[Tazi]

Also why the sudden hate for zoe quinn as a liar is not credible is that it has happen in the past regardless of absence of misdeed.

http://www.themarysue.com/mighty-no-9-dina-abou-karam/



If she is a liar "now" is just a bit too conveniant.

I'm definitely not one of those people, and there's definitely nothing wrong with helping your parner to a job. I think Dina Abou Karam never defined cheating as rape, while she cheated. She didn't took down a feminist game jam with false claims. If she was a gamedev, and her boyfriend is the organizer of a game-dev awards event, and she would win, well.. that would be something else. It would be just unethical to enter. If a company makes a prize winning game, the relatives of the company's workers almost always not allowed to enter to avoid partiality, thus killing the meaning of the contest/entering.
There's a lot of misogynistic harrasment against Zoe, there WAS before all these things happened, but not every criticising person is a woman-hater, but thanks to those assholes, now every critism can be dismissed and silenced as misogyny, even if they're legitimate.

[gimymblert]

Meanwhile Adam Baldwin help propagate the adress of Zoe Quinn and she is currently unable to go home, literally homeless, she has her family harrassed, a friend lost his company because he defend it her, and  her life is threatened. Good job, it's equal opportunity.

AND your only source is a jelly boyfriend enacting revenge.

[Tazi]

Meanwhile Adam Baldwin help propagate the adress of Zoe Quinn and she is currently unable to go home, literally homeless, she has her family harrassed, a friend lost his company because he defend it her, and  her life is threatened. Good job, it's equal opportunity.

A reddit moderator also lost his job, and an Eurogamer news writer, if that makes it more equal.
Zoe's circles also doxxed TYFC. That's a sad thing that she can't go home, yet her actions could have led to others having the same problem, before happened to her. I don't wish anyone a thing like that, but when I punch a random person in a face totally unjustifiedly, and he hits back, and it brakes my nose, I might be beaten em, but I'm not really a victim.

AND your only source is a jelly boyfriend enacting revenge.

Wrong.

[Tazi]

If cliquiness is a the problem just leave Zoe out of that and discuss the whole problem, especially after dorito gate, and various problem that affect big company. Focusing and harassing just one person is just not good.

ON fez, it also happen at a time when the "indie" movement was conceptualize and was a small scene, a far cry from now. Those people put indie in the gaming map, that's a different situation, that we still have problem because the indie scene blew up into a legitimate large scene should be adress, but it worth remembering that cliquiness helpt them creating new business format, production process and the whole tools that are available to everyone. SO FEZ is much more that just a game, bad or good, it's also the symbol of the evolution of indie, from the non conceptualize past, to the conscious of identity to established market. It must evolve for sure, but let's remember the context.

I laughed a lot at the doritos thing back then, it's ridicolous.


But the thing is, I don't care about those AAA games, they're not for me. Maybe there are 2-3 better ones in each year, but that's all for me. What I care about are the indie games. I had the impression that the successful indie games are became success, and got all the attention and awards because they're really that good designs/art-wise.
I think I was kinda naive to beleive that. I didn't thought about someone getting 6 articles on Kotaku because of being the best friend of the writer, instead of actually delivering something notable. Like how serious is a two page long article about a developer is, who came up with the super-original idea, to charge $2 for a short game, and how groundbreaking is that, you wouldn't beleive! (and we are not talking about Zoe anymore)

That wasn't the cliqness what helped indies, it was people making quality games, and oranizing events. Things like giving FEZ multiple awards in multiple years are only helped Phil Fish, who instead of a "thank you" left with saying "you don't deserve FEZ2".

[Tazi]

tazi, you're a mormon

sorry, but i'm an atheist

[Blambo]

Well I've always thought that games featuring criminal environments were basing on reality especially from 3rd world countries. Fortunately it's just a misogynistic propaganda spread by those vicious small-penis frustrated developers. Thank god Anita opened my eyes.

it's not exactly a good faith depiction of conditions, and usually ends up feeling exploitative and ridiculous. the effect that call of duty has on these kinds of settings for example is instilling the idea that every 3rd world country is the same (because the experiences you have in brazil, afghanistan, somalia are all the same, which is doing quick time events amidst a sea of brown faces). you might argue that there are people who dont register thematic or setting shit but one step outside the ludic cocoon leads to a weird shitstorm of prejudice.

to be clear i'm not calling you a racist, i do recognize that #notallgamers are affected by this but you should realize that #notallgamers are immune.

tazi, you're a mormon

sorry, but i'm an atheist

of course you are

[s-spooky g-g-ghosts]

tazi, you're a mormon

sorry, but i'm an atheist

of course you are

‘In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.’

[Tazi]

tazi, you're a mormon

sorry, but i'm an atheist

of course you are

‘In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.’

[Nillo]

you're not getting it. just because zoe quinn is a (allegedly) bad person doesn't make the "criticisms" of her not misogynist. as far as i can see, most of the people who are really mad about this are "anti-sjws" who are using zoe to discredit feminism and women in gaming as a whole (same goes for the majority of ppl who believe anita is "ripping off" her backers).

It's true that whether or not Zoe is a liar and a cheater has no bearing on feminism or the social justice movement as a whole. What does matter, however, is that many feminists immediately rallied in support of Zoe despite the substantial evidence of psychological abuse that has largely gone unrefuted. If the movement is unwilling to take a stand against those who work against its core tenets, it makes them seem more concerned with patting each other on the back than enacting social change.

[gimymblert]

@nillo
If you follow this kind of twitter you would know that beyond the publicly one, it happen all the time, of course they will rally to protect the few, and don't forget mr boyfriend did say she had talents. Psychological abuse happen to them all the time, even if you are not paying attention, while zoe's case is currently public, it's hardly exceptional. Because the burden work also in the other way, don't be patronizing, I don't see the mra like crowd taking any step to adress their shortcoming either, when they does it's all windows dressing (see vivian james). Singling out zoe in this kind of fashion is the worse thing to happen to actually calling for not taking a stand.

https://twitter.com/ank_wobl/status/504418984306159616

@tazi
(classy) citation needed


edit:
let's not forget the Jade Raymond gate

[Tazi]

@tazi
(classy) citation needed

I'll bring it, just tell me about which point exactly.

[MrBones]

these threads always have that homey feel, you know?

Seriously though, I actually watched this video so I could talk about it, and it unsurprisingly suffers from the same problem as usual: justifiable intentions, horrible examples. To be honest I still think there's others who have better views of how to deal with these matters in gaming, but it's not something I really want to argue about. The only thing I really don't generally agree with Anita on is her view on trolls. I understand what she's getting at with all the harassment and stuff online and I can kinda agree with her policy on that (i.e Disabling Comments), but if I took every threat someone sent me online as a real life personal threat, I'd be rolling down to the police every other day. But then again I'm not a celebrity or anything, so I don't want to speak like I'd being emailed shitty threats every day.

Also, why was Zoe brought up? Just because she's somehow related to feminism?

[Tazi]

Also, why was Zoe brought up? Just because she's somehow related to feminism?

She did some really antisocial things, got harrassed for it. Anita took her side.

[MrBones]

She did some really antisocial things, got harrassed for it. Anita took her side.

I heard about the stuff she did. No personal comment.
As far what Anita did in response, I can't believe she announced she publicly supported her after she herself had already been the subject of a ton of shit online. It's like she was asking for more people to come harass her. I don't have a problem with her supporting Zoe (it'd be pointless if no one takes sides), but for the love of god she should have either done it quietly or directly emailed Zoe supporting her.