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[Nillo]

Gabe Newell is answering questions about paid mods in /r/gaming right now. Could be worth a look if you wanna know what the head honcho is saying about it.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Despite loving this in concept, here's a few of the major problems:

1. The Skyrim mod community is so full of drama, they couldn't have picked a worse community to debut this for
2. Mods which do basic scripting and extension functionality should not be salable
3. 25% revenue for something you made yourself is patently ridiculous
4. There should probably be a few dedicated mod curators at Valve to make sure the system isn't abused

i agree with all four of these / seconding. but i want to add one point of elaboration for (2). indie games already take a year or more of work, and go on sale for 99 cent to five dollars (generally). these mods typically take much less than a year of work -- sometimes days of work, sometimes many months, but unless a mod is super super ambitious, a mod will just not take as much time or effort to make as a game. i've seen shadowrun returns mods that were *longer* than the actual game, and had more content than the main storyline, but which were created in about three months. and the prices of mods will very likely be comparable to indie games

so think about what that means: indie devs are spending years to make something to sell for a dollar. modders are spending weeks to make something to sell for a dollar. mods often have a built-in audience, it's easier to market a mod than it is to market an indie game. so basically, which one will be more lucrative?

i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of indies "jump ship" and become modders instead. it seems like it'd be far easier to make a living making and selling skyrim mods than making and selling original games. but we'll see

[gimymblert]

You still have to learn and script, and do assets if you go full conversion.

It's no different than using unity ... depending on the scope
I mean you have the sword pack ... but then there is the asset store which is a better deal ... with potentially less clients ... and you have the total conversion which is basically making a game with the skyrim engine like the unity engine.

So skyrim is free marketing with a captive market, there is this value too, you don't have has much competition that with pure game, ie if you make it with unity. So it's a difficult proposition.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

scripts for mods are typically a lot easier than programming languages. it's really a lot different from unity. have you tried creating any? e.g. i used to make starcraft levels, and it was a *lot* easier and simpler than coding games (even ones with a lot of scripting and special stuff)

[JWK5]

Before I tried my hand at game development I had started learning first with modding. Unreal Tournament was the first game to get me interested, making levels for it and then guns and mutators and whatnot, but Neveriwinter Nights and Elder Scrolls: Morrowind dug me in deeper and led me to RPG Maker, Game Maker, etc. (I tried going further into coding rather than just scripting but I am most comfortable using a "maker" engine where I can focus more on art and general gameplay, I am too unstable to work well with others and code is not my forte).

Modding can be very easy or very frustrating depending on how "mod-friendly" the game is. Games that are set up for it (for example, Neverwinter Nights) can be learned relatively easy and done by virtually anyone, but for games that are not set up for it you might have to deal with what effectively amounts to a blindfolded game of Jenga, trying to unravel code and functions that are intertwined not always in the most understandable manner.

Some mods are a work boredom or enthusiasm, some are passionate and dedicated works that border on insanity.

[gimymblert]

scripts for mods are typically a lot easier than programming languages. it's really a lot different from unity. have you tried creating any? e.g. i used to make starcraft levels, and it was a *lot* easier and simpler than coding games (even ones with a lot of scripting and special stuff)

Like I said it depend on the scope of modding, but you are going from scratch it's as hard as modern unity. I mean making pixel perfect collision or having path finding across many map  with rpgmaker is actually harder because you don't have the support for it. And I helpt make a platformer on it name megaman YPS (acronym stand for yulunga platformer system). You basically trade an efficiency for another depending on what you want to do. If you are going for a dragon quest like rpg then rpgmk is too easy, if you want a custom battle system you are a step away, if you want a platformer you'll rather switch to an engine. And Unity do come with lots of built in stuff and syntax sugar, you don't have to implement path finding, it's native + free asset that does a great job for example, no need for a simple terrain system. There is free example all around the internet and given by unity that it's the equivalent of starting with a pre made game (in fact it's becoming a running joke on steam right now, and rpgmk project are accepted on steam, I mean have you see how awesome is the slaugtering ground?).

[JimmyJ]

Gabe Newell is answering questions about paid mods in /r/gaming right now. Could be worth a look if you wanna know what the head honcho is saying about it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/cqol9re?context=3 He's being eaten alive.

[JWK5]

What I wonder is in the end which mod makers will take the bait and put their work up and which will continue to make for free?

What would be absolutely great is if the only mods that wind up on Steam are the sloppy half-assed ones meanwhile all the really good works remain free, if not just for the morbid amusement of watching the whole thing collapse on itself.

Gabe Newell is answering questions about paid mods in /r/gaming right now. Could be worth a look if you wanna know what the head honcho is saying about it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/cqol9re?context=3 He's being eaten alive.

By far, this is my favorite bit out of all of it:

Well mods like SkyUI cost a dollar and the majority of that should go to the modder.
It makes no sense to reward Bethesda for designing a horrible UI.
What's stopping them from releasing a new game with numerous bugs and little content and just wait for the modders to fix things? Make bank twice for less effort?

EDIT: Exaggerating of course. The point is now Bethesda doesn't need to fix their bugs, their fans will do it for them and they'll get paid more than before. Hell, Bethesda should be paying the modders, not the other way around.

Also:

Already, one of the paid Skyrim mods has been taken down after one user claimed another user was selling it using animations that he had originally created in his own mod. The mod store seller claimed that Valve actually forbade him from contacting the original animator about using his work because of an NDA about the existence the store. And this is somebody who is actually well-meaning. The “wrong crowd” mentioned above could easily slide in and just start stealing other people’s work left and right and selling it on the store. I’ve already heard of modders taking down their mods rather than let them potentially be stolen and used for paid store offerings. Even if Valve has some sort of report system in place, it’s going to be a headache to sort through justified and unjustified claims based on who iterated off whose work and who has the rights to the original mod and so on and so forth. It’s a nightmare waiting to happen.

Second, I now see mods going up that are little tiny swords and whatnot going up for sale. Bundles already that cost more than the game itself. In other words, I am concerned about a complete influx of mods that are completely useless and tiny and unsupported and updated, just because of money-grabbers who want a piece of the pie.

Third, this leads to microtransaction hell. Hell for consumers, and a deluge of stuff to compete against for us modders. This isn't healthy competition. It is gonna be cutthroat. Thanks again for taking the fun out of it.

Fourth, there will be inevitable stealing of other's people's content and then selling it as their own. Some may claim that because they modified another mod's content, they now have created their own mod and are free to sell. I disagree. They are making money at the expense of others.

One thing not accounted for is often mods are the result of many hands. One person starts a mod, another person comes along and fixes it and adds to it, another person comes in after that and further reworks it and so on. Then you have one mod that requires other mods (for example, with the Elder Scrolls games many armor mods require other body or animation mods to be installed as well, often from other authors) and other mods are designed to complement each other and be compatible with one another. The modding scene utilizes a lot of free sharing, that level of trust and generosity is likely to be severely damaged by this all.

[oahda]

The problem being especially troublesome if even the smallest hobby-level mods end up being expected to become paid. We'll have to see, commercial games didn't stop people from making free games.

yeahhh but look at what happened with platforms like steam and the ios appstore: many games that would have most likely been free back in the day are now paid (not saying this is bad necessarily!). so the ability to easily sell downloadable games did change things a lot. and its imo reasonbale to expect the same to happen with mods.

I think it's different. I see you've already discussed it on this page. I'm more or less with Paul. iOS devs coded their own games. Mods add on to somebody else's work and are generally just add-ons or a few quests rather than full games.

For someone creating a mod that's pretty much an entire game, I don't think it's unreasonable for the devs to personally reward them. No need to turn it into a market for every single little mod.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah if someone creates like a 6-12 hour adventure/quest mod, that's definitely something to charge for. but charging for a mod that involves a few lines of code that change the colors of your clothes or something seems silly

what i think steam should have done is have a mini-greenlight system where people could "vote" on whether a mod is good enough to deserve being commercial, instead of just allowing anyone to sell anything without any oversight whatsoever

(that comment by gabe newell about money being everything when it comes to driving innovation and community was particularly telling; i mean i'm a ron paul voter and even i think it's crazy to worship money that much)

[Schoq]

capitalism ruins everything it touches once again

[Torchkas]

Remember when all indie games were free?
This is pretty much the same thing.

[MrBones]

I don't generally go on r/gaming, and I don't plan to again, but I think some people had some decent points.

The one about Dota, CS, TF, etc. originally being free mods caught my eye. Basically the guy asked Gabe if they would have been as successful as they are now if they had been paid, and he admitted that they wouldn't have been. Of course this is a pretty extreme example, but some other people had decent points.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

well not all, but most yeah; back in 2005 when cave story and la mulana were the big thing, pretty much every good indie game was free, though even at that time there were a bunch of shareware ones that often weren't as good as the free ones

in any case, in that AMA gabe mentioned that sales of mods were well below what was expected. the first few days had $10,000 in mod sales. that's kind of pitiful considering steam has millions of users -- he mentioned that 10k doesn't even begin to pay the cost of responding to all the angry emails (customer service people have salaries), haha

[Schrompf]

There was a time when lots of people developed games in their spare time, had fun doing so, presented their progress in forums, and so on. Then the app stores happened. Now everyone expects their first games to earn money. The same will happen to mods, except that mods are a much smaller group of people, so in the end it might simply kill the concept of mods completely, because the target audience is simply not large enough.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i actually think there are more modders than indie game developers. i mean it's hard to measure, but skyrim alone has 12,000 mods. if you add up all the mods for all the popular games (fallout 3, etc.) there are millions of mods

[Schrompf]

Modders - yeah, probably. I meant "people using mods" - I think those are a minority amongst gamers, even smaller than the "I buy indie games" minority.

[Cobralad]

Greenlight was a preview of things to come.
Im going to retire when "Minecraft by xxxСерегаxxx" appears in Skyrim mods list.

Bloodbath Kavkaz was a testament to Steam curation. You can ignore horrible racism that americans wont get, game uses stolen sound assets and clearly uses other game likeness for promotion.

[Sik]

The problem being especially troublesome if even the smallest hobby-level mods end up being expected to become paid. We'll have to see, commercial games didn't stop people from making free games.

yeahhh but look at what happened with platforms like steam and the ios appstore: many games that would have most likely been free back in the day are now paid (not saying this is bad necessarily!). so the ability to easily sell downloadable games did change things a lot. and its imo reasonbale to expect the same to happen with mods.

Actually a lot of those games would have been paid even without it too, just that they'd have a harder time selling. I mean heck, it was even worse in the early PC days where you could end up being expected to pay for tic-tac-toe =P (whether anybody did is a different issue)

[gimymblert]

Bethesda answered

We believe mod developers are just that: developers. We love that Valve has given new choice to the community in how they reward them, and want to pass that choice along to our players. We are listening and will make changes as necessary.

We have a long history with modding, dating back to 2002 with The Elder Scrolls Construction Set. It’s our belief that our games become something much more with the promise of making it your own. Even if you never try a mod, the idea you could do anything is at the core of our game experiences. Over the years we have met much resistance to the time and attention we put into making our games heavily moddable. The time and costs involved, plus the legal hurdles, haven’t made it easy. Modding is one of the reasons Oblivion was re-rated from T to M, costing us millions of dollars. While others in the industry went away from it, we pushed more toward it.

We are always looking for new ways to expand modding. Our friends at Valve share many of the same beliefs in mods and created the Steam Workshop with us in 2012 for Skyrim, making it easier than ever to search and download mods. Along with Skyrim Nexus and other sites, our players have many great ways to get mods.

Despite all that, it’s still too small in our eyes. Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one.

In our early discussions regarding Workshop with Valve, they presented data showing the effect paid user content has had on their games, their players, and their modders. All of it hugely positive. They showed, quite clearly, that allowing content creators to make money increased the quality and choice that players had. They asked if we would consider doing the same.

This was in 2012 and we had many questions, but only one demand. It had to be open, not curated like the current models. At every step along the way with mods, we have had many opportunities to step in and control things, and decided not to. We wanted to let our players decide what is good, bad, right, and wrong. We will not pass judgment on what they do. We’re even careful about highlighting a modder on this blog for that very reason.

Three years later and Valve has finally solved the technical and legal hurdles to make such a thing possible, and they should be celebrated for it. It wasn’t easy. They are not forcing us, or any other game, to do it. They are opening a powerful new choice for everyone.

We believe most mods should be free. But we also believe our community wants to reward the very best creators, and that they deserve to be rewarded. We believe the best should be paid for their work and treated like the game developers they are. But again, we don’t think it’s right for us to decide who those creators are or what they create.

We also don’t think we should tell the developer what to charge. That is their decision, and it’s up to the players to decide if that is a good value. We’ve been down similar paths with our own work, and much of this gives us déjà vu from when we made the first DLC: Horse Armor. Horse Armor gave us a start into something new, and it led to us giving better and better value to our players with DLC like Shivering Isles, Point Lookout, Dragonborn and more. We hope modders will do the same.

Opening up a market like this is full of problems. They are all the same problems every software developer faces (support, theft, etc.), and the solutions are the same. Valve has done a great job addressing those, but there will be new ones, and we’re confident those will get solved over time also. If the system shows that it needs curation, we’ll consider it, but we believe that should be a last resort.

There are certainly other ways of supporting modders, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn’t replace another, and we want the choice to be the community’s. Yet, in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop then he made in all the years he asked for donations.

Revenue Sharing

Many have questioned the split of the revenue, and we agree this is where it gets debatable. We’re not suggesting it’s perfect, but we can tell you how it was arrived at.

First Valve gets 30%. This is standard across all digital distributions services and we think Valve deserves this. No debate for us there.

The remaining is split 25% to the modder and 45% to us. We ultimately decide this percentage, not Valve.

Is this the right split? There are valid arguments for it being more, less, or the same. It is the current industry standard, having been successful in both paid and free games. After much consultation and research with Valve, we decided it’s the best place to start.

This is not some money grabbing scheme by us. Even this weekend, when Skyrim was free for all, mod sales represented less than 1% of our Steam revenue.

The percentage conversation is about assigning value in a business relationship. How do we value an open IP license? The active player base and built in audience? The extra years making the game open and developing tools? The original game that gets modded? Even now, at 25% and early sales data, we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited.

We also look outside at how open IP licenses work, with things like Amazon’s Kindle Worlds, where you can publish fan fiction and get about 15-25%, but that’s only an IP license, no content or tools.

The 25% cut has been operating on Steam successfully for years, and it’s currently our best data point. More games are coming to Paid Mods on Steam soon, and many will be at 25%, and many won’t. We’ll figure out over time what feels right for us and our community. If it needs to change, we’ll change it.

The Larger Issue of the Gaming Community and Modding

This is where we are listening, and concerned, the most. Despite seeming to sit outside the community, we are part of it. It is who we are. We don’t come to work, leave and then ‘turn off’. We completely understand the potential long-term implications allowing paid mods could mean. We think most of them are good. Some of them are not good. Some of them could hurt what we have spent so long building. We have just as much invested in it as our players.

Some are concerned that this whole thing is leading to a world where mods are tied to one system, DRM’d and not allowed to be freely accessed. That is the exact opposite of what we stand for. Not only do we want more mods, easier to access, we’re anti-DRM as far as we can be. Most people don’t know, but our very own Skyrim DLC has zero DRM. We shipped Oblivion with no DRM because we didn’t like how it affected the game.

There are things we can control, and things we can’t. Our belief still stands that our community knows best, and they will decide how modding should work. We think it’s important to offer choice where there hasn’t been before.

We will do whatever we need to do to keep our community and our games as healthy as possible. We hope you will do the same.

Bethesda Game Studios