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Zizka
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« Reply #140 on: May 06, 2016, 07:29:59 AM »

What?! You have 26 days left? Isn't it a bit early to throw the towel? Don't give up yet.

No one was defending you as there was no attack. Keep that in mind.
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MarteloNero
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« Reply #141 on: May 06, 2016, 07:58:05 AM »

What?! You have 26 days left? Isn't it a bit early to throw the towel? Don't give up yet.

No one was defending you as there was no attack. Keep that in mind.

We will wait until next friday at least Smiley

But by the looks of it, on kicktraq , there are too few backers. Only the first day was good, now its going always down and never up.

but we learned a whole LOT of things. basically kickstarter has nothing to do with start. It should be called kickMiddle. you have to have your project at least 50% done, so it wont take so long to finish. All in all, the guys on steam were right from the start.

also learned about our products. What people want. what people dont want. which platforms people want the game in. we also had a LOT of miscredit for not havign a demo with past sidescrollers being too clunky. so we need to prove our point.

"You got to lose to know how to win"
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« Reply #142 on: May 06, 2016, 08:24:24 AM »

Calm down, guys. Kickstarter is never a constant income of backers, there are a lot of peaks and valleys. I've seen a game get backed in less than a day when it was only on 50% of the goal. I believe in your game, you should do it too! And if it don't happen, at least you're already prepared and determined to continue, but don't throw the towel yet.
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« Reply #143 on: May 06, 2016, 08:45:52 AM »

I never understood the desire to cancel a KS. There is no dignity saved by canceling it instead of letting it fail. You gain nothing by cancelling it early. You can potentially gain a lot by letting it run its course and continuing to update and promote it. Gain what? Exposure. Grow you fan base. More backers. More backers = more emails. More people you can notify again on future updates. More people you can post updates to. And if the stars align? Maybe a successful KS...

Just keep rolling with the punches!
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« Reply #144 on: May 06, 2016, 10:05:00 AM »

I never understood the desire to cancel a KS. There is no dignity saved by canceling it instead of letting it fail. You gain nothing by cancelling it early. You can potentially gain a lot by letting it run its course and continuing to update and promote it. Gain what? Exposure. Grow you fan base. More backers. More backers = more emails. More people you can notify again on future updates. More people you can post updates to. And if the stars align? Maybe a successful KS...

Just keep rolling with the punches!

Haha yes yes, I think I said it all wrong. We are going to let it end. We will wait until next friday to have a better decision of what is gonna happen. You are right. On the last few days we had a lot of exposure and we also think a failed kickstarter is indeed a lot of fertilizer for a successful one Smiley
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« Reply #145 on: May 06, 2016, 10:05:53 AM »

Calm down, guys. Kickstarter is never a constant income of backers, there are a lot of peaks and valleys. I've seen a game get backed in less than a day when it was only on 50% of the goal. I believe in your game, you should do it too! And if it don't happen, at least you're already prepared and determined to continue, but don't throw the towel yet.

Thanks for the kind words thirtheen Smiley

I didnt think that way. Well we can't go any lower than 40 backers per day, maybe it will rise indeed, lets wait a full week and see what comes!
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 12:04:38 PM by MarteloNero » Logged

Zizka
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« Reply #146 on: May 06, 2016, 10:53:17 AM »

Yeah, I think everyone got that you were cancelling.

You're getting exposure through this, don't forget that. I'm going to launch my own KS and what decided me was that only good things come out of it: the project progresses, I learn to deal with criticism, get feedback on the game, exposure, etc...

So don't give up, filter out feedback for anything useful as opposed to being in a fight/flight mindset where you need to fight people who criticize you. Keep your cool and keep at it.

Come on!
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MarteloNero
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« Reply #147 on: May 06, 2016, 11:49:28 AM »

Yeah, I think everyone got that you were cancelling.

You're getting exposure through this, don't forget that. I'm going to launch my own KS and what decided me was that only good things come out of it: the project progresses, I learn to deal with criticism, get feedback on the game, exposure, etc...

So don't give up, filter out feedback for anything useful as opposed to being in a fight/flight mindset where you need to fight people who criticize you. Keep your cool and keep at it.

Come on!

Thanks Toaster X, I feel revigorated by your words, and you can count on us to help you :]
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« Reply #148 on: May 08, 2016, 11:47:36 PM »

308 backers have pledged €6,037 (14.37% of a €42,000 goal).

Kicktraq shows a trend to 63%. Bitly shows 178 clicks of the project shortlink. Kicklytics shows a trend to €11,925 (28.4%). SideKick shows a 2% success probability. The project's comments tab has 15 comments total.

The campaign is enduring its first weekend. The next few days will paint a clearer picture about how the campaign is really doing.

Here are graphs about the reward tiers' performance:
http://i.imgur.com/xL0pA07.png

The €8 tier is the most populated. Just over 70% of backers are deciding to pick that tier. The drop in the number of backers to the €10 tier is acceptable because the €8 tier is the early-bird version of it. There are 271 out of 499 early-bird slots remaining.

The price jump from €10 to €25 breaks the rule I use of not doubling the price when still in the range of between the tier that first offers a copy of the game and below $100USD. Covering funding distances if often about getting backers to upgrade in the lower priced tiers. It is like optimizing the air flow of a race car. Such small improvements matter. €50 could be covered by five €10 tier backers or two €25 backers.

The upper range of the reward tiers ends at €500. There is a general disincentive to pledge beyond the highest priced tier because if there isn't a tier to contain such a pledge there less benefit to the backer in terms of receiving a bigger reward for pledging more. Adding new higher priced tiers is an option, but it is more important to worry about the performance of the low priced tiers that are expected see far more backers and cover more funding distance towards the goal.

25.5% of the total pledged is unallocated funds I can't trace back to specific tiers. Unallocated funding can come from backers who don't select any reward tiers (Often family or friends pledging). Backers that pledge extra to cover shipping also contribute to the pool of unallocated funding. It is worrying if that amount gets too big because it often isn't money that will end up going towards actual development. It can create the illusion of greater progress.

The campaign has been hovering at the 15th rank in popularity for the video game category. There are some very strong campaigns that arrived in the same wave at the start of the month that Tower of Samsara launched in. Some of the strong campaigns that ran last month just had their final countdowns over the last 4 days.

At a minimum goal currently equivalent to $47,879USD I'd expect at least 1,544 backers needed to reach 100% funded. 463 backers in the first week would likely have provided sufficient momentum to endure the Kickstarter trough phase in the middle. There are 308 backers, so the campaign did about 66.5% of what it needed to aim for.

The current average pledge is €19.60 per backer. At an average of €16 per backer it would take 2,625 backers just to reach the €42,000 goal. At €20 per backer it would be 2,100 backers to reach that same goal.

Tower of Samsara would need to raise €12,600 before halfway through the campaign to hit the famous 30%-funded-statistical-tipping-point. Right now it has about 47.9% of what it needs for funding. It is far from the doomed situation, but it also isn't great.

Uncharted 4 releases May 10th. DOOM is May 13th. Overwatch is May 24th and its open beta ends tomorrow. It doesn't look as bad a time to get press as it was when Dark Souls III had launched. The campaign's scheduled end date is also far enough away from E3 2016. Overall the timing of the campaign's launch was good.

I agree with others that it is often more advantageous to keep the campaign live instead of canceling. The current campaign can be used as a learning experience to get feedback and test what works. Backers accumulated with the first run could return for the second. It is also possible with a minimum goal of €42,000 that a last 48 hours surge could get it funded because it is small enough. A recent example of a strong final surge are the graphs for Arcadian Atlas.
http://i.imgur.com/w9v3T27.png
Those surges need the right conditions to happen which is a large topic.

I'm taking a deeper look at the project page tomorrow to prepare another message. So far the big thing that is standing out in my notes is that it took too long to get to information I'd want to find immediately to be able to make a decision as a backer. It should take seconds, not a few minutes. This can result in conversion rate issues of less visitors converting into backers. I had to go hunting for information that is normally easy to find. Potential backers and members of press generally won't have as much patience for this kind of hunting. I find my eyes do not skim over the page easily (and I've skimmed thousands of Kickstarter project pages since 2011). The tall full-width images sometimes make it feel like I'm getting lost trying to read through the page.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 09:00:50 AM by LobsterSundew » Logged

MarteloNero
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« Reply #149 on: May 09, 2016, 10:16:14 AM »

308 backers have pledged €6,037 (14.37% of a €42,000 goal).

Kicktraq shows a trend to 63%. Bitly shows 178 clicks of the project shortlink. Kicklytics shows a trend to €11,925 (28.4%). SideKick shows a 2% success probability. The project's comments tab has 15 comments total.

The campaign is enduring its first weekend. The next few days will paint a clearer picture about how the campaign is really doing.

Here are graphs about the reward tiers' performance:
http://i.imgur.com/xL0pA07.png

The €8 tier is the most populated. Just over 70% of backers are deciding to pick that tier. The drop in the number of backers to the €10 tier is acceptable because the €8 tier is the early-bird version of it. There are 271 out of 499 early-bird slots remaining.

The price jump from €10 to €25 breaks the rule I use of not doubling the price when still in the range of between the tier that first offers a copy of the game and below $100USD. Covering funding distances if often about getting backers to upgrade in the lower priced tiers. It is like optimizing the air flow of a race car. Such small improvements matter. €50 could be covered by five €10 tier backers or two €25 backers.

The upper range of the reward tiers ends at €500. There is a general disincentive to pledge beyond the highest priced tier because if there isn't a tier to contain such a pledge there less benefit to the backer in terms of receiving a bigger reward for pledging more. Adding new higher priced tiers is an option, but it is more important to worry about the performance of the low priced tiers that are expected see far more backers and cover more funding distance towards the goal.

25.5% of the total pledged is unallocated funds I can't trace back to specific tiers. Unallocated funding can come from backers who don't select any reward tiers (Often family or friends pledging). Backers that pledge extra to cover shipping also contribute to the pool of unallocated funding. It is worrying if that amount gets too big because it often isn't money that will end up going towards actual development. It can create the illusion of greater progress.

The campaign has been hovering at the 15th rank in popularity for the video game category. There are some very strong campaigns that arrived in the same wave at the start of the month that Tower of Samsara launched in. Some of the strong campaigns that ran last month just had their final countdowns over the last 4 days.

At a minimum goal currently equivalent to $47,879USD I'd expect at least 1,544 backers needed to reach 100% funded. 463 backers in the first week would likely have provided sufficient momentum to endure the Kickstarter trough phase in the middle. There are 308 backers, so the campaign did about 66.5% of what it needed to aim for.

The current average pledge is €19.60 per backer. At an average of €16 per backer it would take 2,625 backers just to reach the €42,000 goal. At €20 per backer it would be 2,100 backers to reach that same goal.

Tower of Samsara would need to raise €12,600 before halfway through the campaign to hit the famous 30%-funded-statistical-tipping-point. Right now it has about 47.9% of what it needs for funding. It is far from the doomed situation, but it also isn't great.

Uncharted 4 releases May 10th. DOOM is May 13th. Overwatch is May 24th and its open beta ends tomorrow. It doesn't look as bad a time to get press as it was when Dark Souls III had launched. The campaign's scheduled end date is also far enough away from E3 2016. Overall the timing of the campaign's launch was good.

I agree with others that it is often more advantageous to keep the campaign live instead of canceling. The current campaign can be used as a learning experience to get feedback and test what works. Backers accumulated with the first run could return for the second. It is also possible with a minimum goal of €42,000 that a last 48 hours surge could get it funded because it is small enough. A recent example of a strong final surge are the graphs for Arcadian Atlas.
http://i.imgur.com/w9v3T27.png
Those surges need the right conditions to happen which is a large topic.

I'm taking a deeper look at the project page tomorrow to prepare another message. So far the big thing that is standing out in my notes is that it took too long to get to information I'd want to find immediately to be able to make a decision as a backer. It should take seconds, not a few minutes. This can result in conversion rate issues of less visitors converting into backers. I had to go hunting for information that is normally easy to find. Potential backers and members of press generally won't have as much patience for this kind of hunting. I find my eyes do not skim over the page easily (and I've skimmed thousands of Kickstarter project pages since 2011). The tall full-width images sometimes make it feel like I'm getting lost trying to read through the page.

Wow LobsterSundew! Thanks a lot for some insights!

Let me go point by point.

Quote
The price jump from €10 to €25 breaks the rule I use of not doubling the price when still in the range of between the tier that first offers a copy of the game and below $100USD. Covering funding distances if often about getting backers to upgrade in the lower priced tiers. It is like optimizing the air flow of a race car. Such small improvements matter. €50 could be covered by five €10 tier backers or two €25 backers.

Indeed. Wish I knew this rule before the kickstarter Sad

Quote
So far the big thing that is standing out in my notes is that it took too long to get to information I'd want to find immediately to be able to make a decision as a backer.

Could you give examples of easy-to-find info kickstarters you see? So we can copy their layout?

Thanks again, we really appreciate your help.

Danilo
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« Reply #150 on: May 09, 2016, 10:35:08 AM »

Hey guys, I've been following you campaign from the beggining. Recently I got my project -Möira- funded and this kind of stagnation after the lauching boom is totally normal. Just keep your heads up and don't throw the towel yet.

Your campaign looks well prepared, but it's quite different from ours since we prepared a pretty polished demo to show people. In the end it totally paid off, since that's how we got featured on many youtube channels, which eventually helped the project get funded.

My advice: Focus on Youtube channels, especially the ones from outside Brazil. Market your game as something related to Dark Souls, since there's something about it in the game anyway. I wish you guys the best. Smiley
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 11:04:37 AM by pxloto » Logged
io3 creations
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« Reply #151 on: May 09, 2016, 01:00:51 PM »

also being defended by io3 creations was unexpected.. thanks everybody

deep inside I know you all love each other.
You know the saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" Grin   Of course just kidding.  I like a good argumentation (note: not arguing).  Especially, as I'm also curious whether the posts that Zizka refers to are actually considered spam and violate the Forum Rules and can get banned for it ... or not.
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« Reply #152 on: May 09, 2016, 01:06:46 PM »

(here, let's bump his thread Smiley)
I'll second that!  Grin Hand Thumbs Up Right

First of all, let's get something out of the way: no one HAS TO do anything (capital letters included). As in real life, there are cold written rules and the other, more subtle and often social related rules: i.e. killing someone is illegal, mowing the lawn at 6 in the morning isn't but it's usually frowned upon so people don't do it because they're part of a community. Now that's clear, let's continue.
In general, that might be true but my reply was about a very specific issue.  Namely, the one you raised about violating the rules of TIG and hence getting banned.  In that context, people do have to behave a certain way to remain on TIG.

Then comes the issue of what is exactly considered violating the rules.  If it's not stated in the rules ... then you can't break them.  Having said that,  there can still be gray areas when interpreting the rules. 

I personally see no point in replying in multiple replies since we have tools like [ hr ] minus the space which can lead to very organized post and replies. It's beside the point anyway as people proceeding that way generally answer all of the questions right away, which doesn't constantly bump the thread back up every hour.
You mentioned your personal preferences but those are just that: your preferences.  I have mine and others have their own.  I've been on forums with a button to collect posts that you want to reply to as a single post.   When I'm busy, I prefer to get things done as fast as I can and it's simpler to click reply button than having to copy and past.  Of course, as you mentioned, in general all replying is done in a short period but there are times when that may not be the case.  Maybe interrupted or have to think or look up something and then there'll be time gaps between the posts.  Sure, it may not be the general case but the same way the occasional speeding can still get you a speeding ticket, violating the rules can get you banned.

What I consider can come across as obnoxious isn't to reply in multiple posts in a short time but to repeatedly spam the thread in other to attract attention (sort of like advertising which overstays its welcome if you will).
Then which situation were you referring to in your original post?  It sounded like the multiple posts kind rather than the reply type.


There are certain aspects that the community can influence and have a say in.  You may have seen what happened to the Saturday Screenshots thread.  It's a generally accepted convention that people only post game screenshots on Saturday.  As someone mentioned in that thread, on some websites/forums posting on *Saturday* is even enforced.  However, that TIG thread didn't specify such criteria.  Over time more and more people started posting screenshots on other day of the week and recently a few people started arguing/discussing about it.  It was raised to have the thread name changed, a few members seconded that and an admin changed it.  So, yes, if many members have an issue with something then things can be changed.
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« Reply #153 on: May 09, 2016, 05:07:59 PM »

Hey guys, I've been following you campaign from the beggining. Recently I got my project -Möira- funded and this kind of stagnation after the lauching boom is totally normal. Just keep your heads up and don't throw the towel yet.

Your campaign looks well prepared, but it's quite different from ours since we prepared a pretty polished demo to show people. In the end it totally paid off, since that's how we got featured on many youtube channels, which eventually helped the project get funded.

My advice: Focus on Youtube channels, especially the ones from outside Brazil. Market your game as something related to Dark Souls, since there's something about it in the game anyway. I wish you guys the best. Smiley

Haha yes, we saw that! moira was awesome since the beginning.

And yes, if we get to launch a second KS, we are now planning to launch a polished demo too Smiley

thanks for the tips!

Danilo
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« Reply #154 on: May 09, 2016, 11:35:14 PM »

-----Part 1-----

A core problem I see with the campaign may be poor first impressions being generated in the discovery area. What do visitors see: the project title, thumbnail and description.

The project title is fine.

The current project description is "A pixel art platformer where you will struggle for ascension". It begins by invoking a description that has become a stigma in indie gaming. There are many 2D pixel art platformers on the market. It is something that 2D pixel art platformers have to constant fight up-hill against. HardcoreGamer's article even opened with the note of it being easy to skip over such games. As well, there are many many low effort 2D platformers on Kickstarter that are "low-effort" project pages without much to them. The "struggle for ascension" only hints at the theme of the game. It should be possible to improve the description.

I wonder if "sidescroller" is more accurate to use than "platformer". While there is jumping, it seems to be more ledge-graps and working through the terrain. It isn't like a Mario game where there is constant jumping required to do everything. Prince of Persia was mentioned in this thread as an influence.

The current project thumbnail has no logo or title graphic. This may have been done for artistic reasons. Some project pages look unwell with the amount of clutter like platform logos and multiple badges. In this case the lack of work on the project thumbnail reinforces the impression that it is a low-effort campaign (Remember this part of the critique is only about the 3 pieces visible in the discover area). Many low-effort campaigns are seen using just a plain image without any extras. Falling down in the popularity rankings and a low number of backers also reinforces that perception the project isn't worth clicking.

The art of the project thumbnail is good. The protagonist does get covered a bit by the play button, but not too badly. The blues and yellow stands out. It looks like concept art which is both good and bad. Many low-effort projects will slap on some commissioned concept art, so frequent backers don't fall for it as easily as they did back in 2012. Tower of Samsara is not a low-effort project. There is very good potential inside, but casual browsers of the discover area might not be able to see that on just the outer layer which many projects try to puff up better looking than it really is. The games pixel art is strong, but potential backers don't know that the in-game art is about par with that strong piece of art in the project thumbnail.

When the pitch video starts it has a repeating walk cycle of the protagonist. It fades through a bunch of backdrops with flat terrain beneath his feet. A potential backer may suspect this is mock-up footage. It also isn't the most exciting start and doesn't show off one of the by far biggest strengths which is the pixel art animations (especially for the enemies). An alternate version of the video with the first 24 seconds of the current pitch removed could be tested. Many viewers are lost in the first few seconds of a pitch video.

-----Part 2-----

The problem I previously mentioned is that it took much more effort to skim the project page than usual.

First there is the visuals. The project page is really really tall.

The awards/quotes section takes up a very significant amount of vertical space. There is lots of whitespace that feels wasted. An example of one way to salvage vertical space would be to put the Desctructoid quote to the right side of the Destructoid logo, instead of below, by making it an image. The image could also potentially be hyperlinked to the article the quote came from. The same idea could be applied to salvaging space in the team members section.

Under the project subsection are 7 large animated GIFs that almost fill the width of the project page body. Such GIFs would normally be used to break up walls of paragraphs. Here they are just stacked one-on-top-of-the-other. The GIFs themselves are good.

The paragraph about the hermetic champion has a giant tall image following it. The two deities images could be shrunk and but side-by-side. So much of the project page could have space saving layouts applied. If people want to see an image in more detail, you could hyperlink a smaller version of the image to a larger version they can load in another web browser tab.

I looked at the scrollbar size in web browser tab. Tower of Samsara's project page body is very very tall. It is even taller than Chronicles of Elyria tall project body.

Second there is the information conveyed by the project page text.

It is good that the platform information is relatively near the top, but other key selling points aren't near the top. I then go looking for the next paragraph to read. It is all the way down past where the $500 tier is. When I actually get to the section about the 6 different realms the text is good, but it was a mini adventure just to scroll down that far. Casual visitors are more likely to give up by then.

The karma system is actually one of the most attractive selling points I see for the game, but it is way way down below the talks of the wormhole device. A sort of Undertale or Trigun style pacifism is something many gamers are now welcoming as an option. It is an angle that some bloggers can use to cover the game.

This next bit is not intended to offend: most potential buyers are going to care much more about the game play than the lore. The amount of lore is burying the info about gameplay/mechanics/abilities. I double-checked to see if I missed any embedded YouTube videos on the project page; there weren't any. The videos I remembers watching were in this thread.

There is also information not on the project page. I had to go digging. I had to learn about the 3 main types of attacks (horizontal/vertical/thrust) from this thread. The YouTube videos conveyed much more information than the pitch video. Seeing the controller tutorial prompts appear was very good. The force push was explained in the thread. In modern Internet marketing there is the concept of minimizing how many layers or mouse clicks are needed to get to information. The more layers, the fewer people will make it to that information. Instead of a strong concise summary, the game's selling points are littered around different places.

When the lamp is talked about, it would be good to go more specific instead of being generic or ending with only a brief note. The environmental manipulation may be one of the core selling points. Examples of it warding off ghosts or revealing a hidden path would be shown. Sometimes talking about a feature isn't enough. Sometimes it has to be shown in action to be easier to understand.

SUPERHOT is an example on the extreme end of the spectrum for achieving a summary of core gameplay very quickly. To convey what the essence of the game is, the devs just need to show some brief footage of dodging a bullet while saying "Time only moves when you move" and then show a bullet blow away the enemy. The brain of an experienced gamer can then rapidly fill in the details they need to decide if they are interested.

Part of the act of copywriting a project page is condensing and organizing the information into one easy to find spot. It is sometimes the process of wrangling a unique selling point to focus upon above all the other selling points. Sometimes the focus in on creating a specific emotional response like a sense of mystery, nostalgia or a challenge. There is also the traditional exploration of why the game is worth playing, why the team is the right team for the job and what are the benefits of its features. The project page for Tower of Samsara may need a few iterations of polishing.

-----Part 3-----

Most of the problems seem fixable. The game itself should be able to reach such a minimum goal. The rewards structure could work in its current form. The big problem will be gaining enough momentum.

It is possible to experiment with different project thumbnails. If one doesn't work, another might. At the end of the campaign you upload the image you want to keep.

Sometimes an Imgur public gallery post or a /r/gamedev Marketing Monday post can be used to test how the copywriting of the project is received.

Trying to get more exposure within the Souls community may be something to prioritize. Comparing a game to Dark Souls can be a bit tricky and there can be backlash. The franchise means different things to different people. For some its difficulty. Others its atmosphere, the bonfire system or the stamina depletion system. When you do make comparisons, try to be as specific as possible about how the two games are similar. The haiku system has already been described as similar to the bloodstain/notes system.

What kind of skills are being tested? Patience, reaction speed, timing, planning and combinations are examples. The game may be attractive to those who require a challenge from gaming. It isn't too clear how easy or hard the game is intended to be on the normal difficulty setting.

The boss for Pluto with the falling swords is one of the strongest pieces of promotable material I see on the project page.

The particle effects and visuals like the ragged cloth blowing in the wind could be good project update material. Submitting tutorials to places like /r/gamedev is one method to promote a project.

It is still possible for the current run to be successful because of how relatively low the minimum goal is. As pxloto mentioned, a playable demo can significantly help with traffic. The graphs for Moira show the benefit of Jesse Cox's video.
http://i.imgur.com/hhFN4vZ.png

If playable demo is prepared, I'd recommend sending a playable build to Liam of the Super Best Friends Play. Why? He is known as a strong supporter of the PS Vita. In general the game fits with what they show on their channel and they've had discussions about wanting to see more Dark Souls inspired games in the future. If you can't prepare a demo soon enough, you could try to at least get a mention on their podcast. That podcast often talks about active Kickstarter campaigns. Woolie is their member that manages the podcast.
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« Reply #155 on: May 10, 2016, 03:29:13 AM »

@io3creations:

I don't want to hijack the thread (us being a community and all that  Coffee) but since it'll bump the topic, I don' think OP would oppose.

Quote from: io3creations
Namely, the one you raised about violating the rules of TIG and hence getting banned.  In that context, people do have to behave a certain way to remain on TIG.

Ok, yes, I understand better. Like you said, "project bumping" is certainly in a grey area. It's left to people's judgment and, as it were, people will have varying opinions on the matter.

I think that, if someone were to excessively bump their topic, say every hour, it would probably lead to a warning of some sort (or at least I would hope so). I would personally mention it to the author anyway.

Quote from: io3creations
You mentioned your personal preferences but those are just that: your preferences.  I have mine and others have their own.  I've been on forums with a button to collect posts that you want to reply to as a single post.   When I'm busy, I prefer to get things done as fast as I can and it's simpler to click reply button than having to copy and past.  Of course, as you mentioned, in general all replying is done in a short period but there are times when that may not be the case.  Maybe interrupted or have to think or look up something and then there'll be time gaps between the posts.  Sure, it may not be the general case but the same way the occasional speeding can still get you a speeding ticket, violating the rules can get you banned.


Well, yes, as we both agree on, they are my preferences. Like you said (in green), the vast majority of the time, people handle this right away and they don't "scatterpost" maliciously to thread bump their game. Replying in multiple posts is a non-issue in that sense and part of the grey area. I'm ok when it's done like you've just done right now. If I weren't, I wouldn't impose my view but I'd bring it up to the community so that a "democratic" decision can be made. I don't want my point of view to be imposed to the majority. I can only suggest.

Quote from: io3creations
Then which situation were you referring to in your original post?  It sounded like the multiple posts kind rather than the reply type.

No, I was referring to machine-gun thread bumping (wow, I'm creating so many new words!).

Quote from: io3creations
There are certain aspects that the community can influence and have a say in.  You may have seen what happened to the Saturday Screenshots thread.  It's a generally accepted convention that people only post game screenshots on Saturday.  As someone mentioned in that thread, on some websites/forums posting on *Saturday* is even enforced.  However, that TIG thread didn't specify such criteria.  Over time more and more people started posting screenshots on other day of the week and recently a few people started arguing/discussing about it.

I did read about it. This actually brings an interesting thing. I think "rules" change because based on the way they are enforced or not. For instance, people started posting screenshots not on Saturday and I'm guessing the mods didn't enforce anything, which lead to more people doing the same thing. Eventually the "Saturday" part was discarded because it wasn't enforced anyway. Rules only serve a purpose if they are actually enforced, otherwise they vanish as people will repeatedly ignore them.

Quote
It was raised to have the thread name changed, a few members seconded that and an admin changed it.  So, yes, if many members have an issue with something then things can be changed.

If people bring it up, yes. With a huge community like TIG and a wide diversity of opinions, some people will go ahead and try things and test boundaries to see whether if flies or not. From what I've seen, staff is mostly not-intrusive which has both good and bad aspects. I think members of the community then have to voice their opinion when something bothers them as it can quickly become a habit which in the end can become something detrimental if put into practice by everyone.

I'll leave it at that to stop the off-topicness but we can continue in the townhall if you want. I appreciate voicing your disagreement in a respectful, moderate way!  Coffee


  It was raised to have the thread name changed, a few members seconded that and an admin changed it.  So, yes, if many members have an issue with something then things can be changed.[/quote]

EDIT: I didn't realize our disagreement led us to be "enemies". Just for the record, I feel no such way towards you.


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« Reply #156 on: May 10, 2016, 12:28:57 PM »

@Zizka
Sounds like all the issues raised were answered so this'll be my final "bump" on the matter.  Smiley

I agree that it is helpful if the community plays a role since admins can only do so much - either being busy or may get to a certain issue for a while or may not consider something to be an issue.  Also, it can be beneficial in raising awareness - especially for new members.  Having read some of your posts, I can now understand better where you're coming from (and will continue there with that and a few other topics relevant to your thread).

EDIT: I didn't realize our disagreement led us to be "enemies". Just for the record, I feel no such way towards you.
"Enemies"?  Are you referring to:
You know the saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" Grin   Of course just kidding. I like a good argumentation (note: not arguing).  Especially, as I'm also curious whether the posts that Zizka refers to are actually considered spam and violate the Forum Rules and can get banned for it ... or not.
As mentioned, I was mainly interested in whether the behavior you described could be an issue for me in the future and certainly don't have any negative feelings toward you or anyone else that I participated with similar type of argumentation. Smiley
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« Reply #157 on: May 11, 2016, 09:56:01 AM »

First of all, thanks a lot for you help LobsterSundew , I am making notes of everything you said to our next attempt at KS.

-----Part 1-----

A core problem I see with the campaign may be poor first impressions being generated in the discovery area. What do visitors see: the project title, thumbnail and description.

The project title is fine.

The current project description is "A pixel art platformer where you will struggle for ascension". It begins by invoking a description that has become a stigma in indie gaming. There are many 2D pixel art platformers on the market. It is something that 2D pixel art platformers have to constant fight up-hill against. HardcoreGamer's article even opened with the note of it being easy to skip over such games. As well, there are many many low effort 2D platformers on Kickstarter that are "low-effort" project pages without much to them. The "struggle for ascension" only hints at the theme of the game. It should be possible to improve the description.

I wonder if "sidescroller" is more accurate to use than "platformer". While there is jumping, it seems to be more ledge-graps and working through the terrain. It isn't like a Mario game where there is constant jumping required to do everything. Prince of Persia was mentioned in this thread as an influence.

The current project thumbnail has no logo or title graphic. This may have been done for artistic reasons. Some project pages look unwell with the amount of clutter like platform logos and multiple badges. In this case the lack of work on the project thumbnail reinforces the impression that it is a low-effort campaign (Remember this part of the critique is only about the 3 pieces visible in the discover area). Many low-effort campaigns are seen using just a plain image without any extras. Falling down in the popularity rankings and a low number of backers also reinforces that perception the project isn't worth clicking.

The art of the project thumbnail is good. The protagonist does get covered a bit by the play button, but not too badly. The blues and yellow stands out. It looks like concept art which is both good and bad. Many low-effort projects will slap on some commissioned concept art, so frequent backers don't fall for it as easily as they did back in 2012. Tower of Samsara is not a low-effort project. There is very good potential inside, but casual browsers of the discover area might not be able to see that on just the outer layer which many projects try to puff up better looking than it really is. The games pixel art is strong, but potential backers don't know that the in-game art is about par with that strong piece of art in the project thumbnail.

When the pitch video starts it has a repeating walk cycle of the protagonist. It fades through a bunch of backdrops with flat terrain beneath his feet. A potential backer may suspect this is mock-up footage. It also isn't the most exciting start and doesn't show off one of the by far biggest strengths which is the pixel art animations (especially for the enemies). An alternate version of the video with the first 24 seconds of the current pitch removed could be tested. Many viewers are lost in the first few seconds of a pitch video.


About the description, I didnt want it to be misleading. But stigma and prejudice indeed can be a powerful force against our game. I used Undertale as reference "A traditional role-playing game where no one has to get hurt.". Do you think this influenced much?

About the thumbnail, We see what you mean. Most of the projects have the game logo/name in the image even though KS recommends not to. It seems to somehow make it indeed more 'professional'. We added to ours Smiley

About the video, we will add some pixel art animation to the beginning to grab the viewers attention. I think it will also make the video looks more professional overall.


-----Part 2-----

The problem I previously mentioned is that it took much more effort to skim the project page than usual.

First there is the visuals. The project page is really really tall.

The awards/quotes section takes up a very significant amount of vertical space. There is lots of whitespace that feels wasted. An example of one way to salvage vertical space would be to put the Desctructoid quote to the right side of the Destructoid logo, instead of below, by making it an image. The image could also potentially be hyperlinked to the article the quote came from. The same idea could be applied to salvaging space in the team members section.

Under the project subsection are 7 large animated GIFs that almost fill the width of the project page body. Such GIFs would normally be used to break up walls of paragraphs. Here they are just stacked one-on-top-of-the-other. The GIFs themselves are good.

The paragraph about the hermetic champion has a giant tall image following it. The two deities images could be shrunk and but side-by-side. So much of the project page could have space saving layouts applied. If people want to see an image in more detail, you could hyperlink a smaller version of the image to a larger version they can load in another web browser tab.

I looked at the scrollbar size in web browser tab. Tower of Samsara's project page body is very very tall. It is even taller than Chronicles of Elyria tall project body.

Second there is the information conveyed by the project page text.

It is good that the platform information is relatively near the top, but other key selling points aren't near the top. I then go looking for the next paragraph to read. It is all the way down past where the $500 tier is. When I actually get to the section about the 6 different realms the text is good, but it was a mini adventure just to scroll down that far. Casual visitors are more likely to give up by then.

The karma system is actually one of the most attractive selling points I see for the game, but it is way way down below the talks of the wormhole device. A sort of Undertale or Trigun style pacifism is something many gamers are now welcoming as an option. It is an angle that some bloggers can use to cover the game.

This next bit is not intended to offend: most potential buyers are going to care much more about the game play than the lore. The amount of lore is burying the info about gameplay/mechanics/abilities. I double-checked to see if I missed any embedded YouTube videos on the project page; there weren't any. The videos I remembers watching were in this thread.

There is also information not on the project page. I had to go digging. I had to learn about the 3 main types of attacks (horizontal/vertical/thrust) from this thread. The YouTube videos conveyed much more information than the pitch video. Seeing the controller tutorial prompts appear was very good. The force push was explained in the thread. In modern Internet marketing there is the concept of minimizing how many layers or mouse clicks are needed to get to information. The more layers, the fewer people will make it to that information. Instead of a strong concise summary, the game's selling points are littered around different places.

When the lamp is talked about, it would be good to go more specific instead of being generic or ending with only a brief note. The environmental manipulation may be one of the core selling points. Examples of it warding off ghosts or revealing a hidden path would be shown. Sometimes talking about a feature isn't enough. Sometimes it has to be shown in action to be easier to understand.

SUPERHOT is an example on the extreme end of the spectrum for achieving a summary of core gameplay very quickly. To convey what the essence of the game is, the devs just need to show some brief footage of dodging a bullet while saying "Time only moves when you move" and then show a bullet blow away the enemy. The brain of an experienced gamer can then rapidly fill in the details they need to decide if they are interested.

Part of the act of copywriting a project page is condensing and organizing the information into one easy to find spot. It is sometimes the process of wrangling a unique selling point to focus upon above all the other selling points. Sometimes the focus in on creating a specific emotional response like a sense of mystery, nostalgia or a challenge. There is also the traditional exploration of why the game is worth playing, why the team is the right team for the job and what are the benefits of its features. The project page for Tower of Samsara may need a few iterations of polishing.


About the page being tall, we tottaly agree, we will try to reduce to maximum blank space.

We will create a gameplay section explaining the selling points and merge with the gifs and reduce the lore section by 70% (leave only the 'tower' section);


-----Part 3-----

Most of the problems seem fixable. The game itself should be able to reach such a minimum goal. The rewards structure could work in its current form. The big problem will be gaining enough momentum.

It is possible to experiment with different project thumbnails. If one doesn't work, another might. At the end of the campaign you upload the image you want to keep.

Sometimes an Imgur public gallery post or a /r/gamedev Marketing Monday post can be used to test how the copywriting of the project is received.

Trying to get more exposure within the Souls community may be something to prioritize. Comparing a game to Dark Souls can be a bit tricky and there can be backlash. The franchise means different things to different people. For some its difficulty. Others its atmosphere, the bonfire system or the stamina depletion system. When you do make comparisons, try to be as specific as possible about how the two games are similar. The haiku system has already been described as similar to the bloodstain/notes system.

What kind of skills are being tested? Patience, reaction speed, timing, planning and combinations are examples. The game may be attractive to those who require a challenge from gaming. It isn't too clear how easy or hard the game is intended to be on the normal difficulty setting.

The boss for Pluto with the falling swords is one of the strongest pieces of promotable material I see on the project page.

The particle effects and visuals like the ragged cloth blowing in the wind could be good project update material. Submitting tutorials to places like /r/gamedev is one method to promote a project.

It is still possible for the current run to be successful because of how relatively low the minimum goal is. As pxloto mentioned, a playable demo can significantly help with traffic. The graphs for Moira show the benefit of Jesse Cox's video.
http://i.imgur.com/hhFN4vZ.png

If playable demo is prepared, I'd recommend sending a playable build to Liam of the Super Best Friends Play. Why? He is known as a strong supporter of the PS Vita. In general the game fits with what they show on their channel and they've had discussions about wanting to see more Dark Souls inspired games in the future. If you can't prepare a demo soon enough, you could try to at least get a mention on their podcast. That podcast often talks about active Kickstarter campaigns. Woolie is their member that manages the podcast.

Thansk a lot for these general advices. We think we marketed our game well because we did get a lot of traffic, but very few turned into pledge. Indeed a demo will be a priority for now on, because we feel our game type is subject to a lot of stigma like you pointed. We feel releasing a demo day 1 may be a good idea on the next kickstarter. For now, it would be very risky because a demo would be very unpolished -- so the game could be classified as bad forever.

Do you have an email ? Contact mean you prefer ? We would like to get in touch with you on our next kickstarter attempt to review our kickstarter if possible. And return the favor in any way we can Smiley

Thanks a lot for your help, you really were the MVP for us.

Danilo
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« Reply #158 on: May 11, 2016, 10:33:04 PM »

Here are updated graphs for Tower of Samsara's progress:
http://i.imgur.com/QITpSsI.png

The €8 tier should be viewed as the canary-in-a-coal-mine that helps indicate the health of the campaign. Most backers pick the cheapest option to get the game. It was slowing down on May 7th and then picked up a bit on May 10th (Some strong campaigns launched that day bringing in traffic to the Kickstarter category). The €8 tier will plateau when it becomes full (with the €10 tier taking on most of the new growth) or it the campaign completely stalls. Stalling out completely is the common fate of many campaigns that launch. It hasn't stalled yet, so that is a disincentive to cancel. Slow progress is still progress that can benefit a relaunch.

Tower of Samsara dropped to 22nd in popularity. Dropping below the 20th position means potential backers have to go through the extra step of clicking the "Load more" button. In the next 40 hours 3 of the top campaigns will have their deadlines and free up space in the rankings, but new strong campaigns can also take those spots. A big wave of low-effort campaigns also just appeared. Many project creators will try to run now instead of competing against E3 2016.

Potions: A Curious Tale is another very recent example of a campaign that didn't give up and made it with a final surge. For surges to happen, morale needs to be kept high. In Potion's case there was a livestream with the consumption of hot peppers. If press won't cover a game on the big sites, then a campaign is more dependent on the social media burst its backers create. Low morale means apathy about promoting the game on social media.
http://i.imgur.com/FEO05ef.png

Kickstarter had been cracking down on the usage of unofficial staff pick badges in project thumbnail images. They now have the "Projects we love" system instead. A game's logo is generally not considered clutter. They would refuse to retweet projects on the official Twitter that used banners and badges too much.

Undertale is okay to reference as long as the reference is clear about what specific parts of the game are similar. Dishonored and Deus Ex Human Revolution are also games with pacifist play-style options built-in at the core of the game. If there is both pacifist and killer routes through the demo it could effectively double the potential playtime that Let's Players could work with.

"A pixel art platformer where you will struggle for ascension" could be rearranged. The first part could become "Struggle for ascension" and then followed with the rest of the description. That way the reader doesn't immediately bump into the pixel platformer part. "Struggle for ascension. Climb the tower. Achieve enlightenment. Don't let your light be lost". If the project description itself was a haiku that could be interesting (but also potentially more difficult to do).

Backers like to be involved in the campaigns they pledge to. If you are prioritizing a playable demo, then you current 300+ backers are a valuable asset. You could use a backers-only project update to ask for testers on different platforms like Linux and different grades of hardware like basic laptops to beefy GPU desktops. You can outline the plan and get their input like potential places to send a demo build or ways to improve the demo. This interaction also provides a good excuse to have project updates. Project updates are a way to show a dev hasn't given up all hope. Often failing campaigns just go silent and ruin backer morale.

I'll send a private message through Kickstarter's messaging system.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 10:38:43 PM by LobsterSundew » Logged

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« Reply #159 on: May 12, 2016, 12:07:28 PM »

Congrats on getting Greenlit!
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