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[beetleking22]

Im working on 2D Action adventure game and It has similar metroid map structure.  I was planning to create areas where you stuck without obvious hint....Like in Super metroid when you need to destroy  the Tube in near maridia entrance with power bomb. The game does not tell u any hint how to entrance in Maridia near the tube.. Is this bad level design? Should I avoid  design like these in my game? A lot of people might be frustrating and just keep not playing the game anymore because stuck.. When I was kid it took me Half year to entrance in maridia.. There are also people who like these things.. So it very hard to please everybody..

I heard lot of negative from people  about Axiom verge because they keep stuck a lot in that game..

Sorry my bad english..

[Zorg]

I don't like being stuck in a game, so i would google the solution if i don't know what to do. Maybe you could add a wise NPC in the game which gives you hints. So if you are stuck, you always know where to get a hint.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

i think it's ok as long as it isn't intentionally made to make the game feel longer.
If it makes the player feel like he is lost in the world in a mystically way it's a win. And it think it's one of the shining points of Axiom Verge.

Don't try to please casual players, if stuck they will eventually look into guides and walkthroughs.
Make it challenging for Metroidvania lovers.

[beetleking22]

i think it's ok as long as it isn't intentionally made to make the game feel longer.
If it makes the player feel like he is lost in the world in a mystically way it's a win. And it think it's one of the shining points of Axiom Verge.

Don't try to please casual players, if stuck they will eventually look into guides and walkthroughs.
Make it challenging for Metroidvania lovers.

I see thank u for good explanation. I personally prefer to stuck in games like how u described as "mystically way" I was very exited when accidentally destroyed the Tube in maridia after half months of trying to find maridia . I was screaming of joy.. and somehow it made me love Super metroid even more as kid.. I dont want to create tons of stuck moments.. Just 1-2 so that people do not explode of frustrations in every maps... This might be good balance for both Casual and Metroid fans.

[TitoOliveira]

Back in the day people did not have access to a wide library of games like we do today.
Players today jump from one game to the other in days, even hours. You're in for a herculean challenge if you want to make a game that purposely leave the player stuck. You will have to really make people excited about your game.
Dark Souls was the one of the few games that accomplished this kind of thing. And even when the player was left stuck, he had other places he could go to keep things rolling.

[battlerager]

I see thank u for good explanation. I personally prefer to stuck in games like how u described as "mystically way" I was very exited when accidentally destroyed the Tube in maridia after half months of trying to find maridia . I was screaming of joy.. and somehow it made me love Super metroid even more as kid.. I dont want to create tons of stuck moments.. Just 1-2 so that people do not explode of frustrations in every maps... This might be good balance for both Casual and Metroid fans.

I can see how a kid could feel like this, finally getting further in the game.

Personally, I only played Super Metroid on an Emulator, as an adult, and this specific part made me stop playing in frustration.
I later gave  up and looked at a walkthrough, then continued a bit further into the game but my motivation was gone and I stopped.

To this day I argue it is bad design. Every other bombable surface / block in the game is specifically marked. Oh well.

[Alevice]

I find this claim strange. Your first proper venture into maridia is past the ghost ship area, not the crystal tube area, which is just an optional bit. You also have to remeber that back in the era, the games showed small bit of the game if you left it idle during the title screen, and one of the scenes spoiled that bit. Without the gravity suit, its a venture in frustration however.

[battlerager]

I find this claim strange. Your first proper venture into maridia is past the ghost ship area, not the crystal tube area, which is just an optional bit. You also have to remeber that back in the era, the games showed small bit of the game if you left it idle during the title screen, and one of the scenes spoiled that bit. Without the gravity suit, its a venture in frustration however.

Maybe I just assumed that was the path forward and failed to progress properly and just looked up specifically that tube. I don't fully remember, I just remember it really pissing me off. I should sit down and beat that game from the beginning sometime.

And I (almost) never let games sit in the title screen, so I didn't know that. Cool!

[baconman]

If you're hand-crafting this world, have a backdoor to everywhere. This way, if you don't think to Power Bomb the corridor to Maridia; there's another Power Bomb door somewhere that will transition you to the area; but also will be a bit of a detour. Then, don't include any items in said detour - because then it's no longer a detour, it's a "completion path," which defeats the purpose in having the more forward direction to begin with.

But at some point; usually early on, when you don't have a lot of powers at your disposal; the players are *meant* to feel a little stuck. You want a point or two where the player has to poke around and experiment with their basic actions in order to go anywhere. It's how you open the player to ideas like "there are blocks that look normal that can be destroyed." Then, it's not a matter that they *must* discover secret areas to proceed; but at least there's an intrinsic awareness that they DO exist, and that they can be found certain ways.

[beetleking22]

I find this claim strange. Your first proper venture into maridia is past the ghost ship area, not the crystal tube area, which is just an optional bit. You also have to remeber that back in the era, the games showed small bit of the game if you left it idle during the title screen, and one of the scenes spoiled that bit. Without the gravity suit, its a venture in frustration however.

The Ghost ship path does not send you in hearth of maridia because the green door block the path. There are broken tube near the Green door thing and it supposed to indicate that you can destroy the tube in the red soil..

[Alevice]

I find this claim strange. Your first proper venture into maridia is past the ghost ship area, not the crystal tube area, which is just an optional bit. You also have to remeber that back in the era, the games showed small bit of the game if you left it idle during the title screen, and one of the scenes spoiled that bit. Without the gravity suit, its a venture in frustration however.

The Ghost ship path does not send you in hearth of maridia because the green door block the path. There are broken tube near the Green door thing and it supposed to indicate that you can destroy the tube in the red soil..

As someone who has played the game recently, I can totally asure you you are mistaken.

Case in point:

http://www.metroid-base.com/Fire/Websites/MB3alt/Kartei/Bilder/m3map3.jpg

Look at the uper right area

[baconman]

  THIS.

See also:

[beetleking22]

I find this claim strange. Your first proper venture into maridia is past the ghost ship area, not the crystal tube area, which is just an optional bit. You also have to remeber that back in the era, the games showed small bit of the game if you left it idle during the title screen, and one of the scenes spoiled that bit. Without the gravity suit, its a venture in frustration however.

The Ghost ship path does not send you in hearth of maridia because the green door block the path. There are broken tube near the Green door thing and it supposed to indicate that you can destroy the tube in the red soil..

As someone who has played the game recently, I can totally asure you you are mistaken.

Case in point:

http://www.metroid-base.com/Fire/Websites/MB3alt/Kartei/Bilder/m3map3.jpg

Look at the uper right area

Yes you can explore the maridia little bit but you cannot go further..The doors are locked if u try to go from Ghost ship route.... The only way to Draygon is Red soil Tube..

[Moth]

You know, I've played Super Metroid so many times but never thought that much about the glass tube section- which is indeed necessary to get to the boss. Seeing it zoomed out, the design around the area now makes perfect sense to me.



It's pretty clever. Personally, the first time I played the game I exploded the tube early on, but by design the architecture kind of nudges you towards the spot in case you hadn't done so yet. The placement of the map chamber is no coincidence and serves as a hint.

Of course, people would probably still get stuck here, even with the hint by design. But people can and will get stuck on anything. Observe: When Super Metroid launched on the Wii U, Miiverse was filled with "I'm stuck" posts at points where people wouldn't expect to see any (click).

This does raise some questions about what level of accessibility games owe to the people who purchase them. As ridiculous as it may seem that people get stuck on certain points, it can still pose a problem to enjoyment of the game and they do deserve to experience the game they bought. Maybe it's best to have a guide available for games where the developer may worry about the level of accessibility.

In the end, you can't please everyone no matter what you do. Personally, I like the glass tube, but I understand how it has the capacity to frustrate or even block progress, just like any puzzle in any game. To answer if it is "bad level design," I don't believe in any game design being objectively good or bad because enjoyment is so subjective. Concepts that one audience enjoys might not work for another audience, but that doesn't discount the design choice.

See La Mulana for an indie game full of obscure puzzles which is much less accessible than even Super Metroid. Despite its obtuseness- or in fact because of it- it enjoyed great success and is well-loved by many. Make your game for yourself, and for people who enjoy what you enjoy. I think that's what art is all about.

[Diabetes Forecast]

This all reminds me of how little I enjoyed Maridia in general. I found alot of it's design obtuse and structured to make you really waste time.
As a kid, I easily figured out that the tube needed to be bombed. After I got the super bombs, it was the first place I went back to.

I think though, the Sunken Ship was the best way to get in to Maridia proper. I remember it being real easy to get past that gate. I think it was just a super bomb gate or something like that.

[Alevice]

Yes you can explore the maridia little bit but you cannot go further..The doors are locked if u try to go from Ghost ship route.... The only way to Draygon is Red soil Tube..

Oh damn you are right. I really really really could have sworn the glass tube was just a shortcut... ugh. My apologies.

[baconman]

Ditto. I'm just used to doing it anyways.

[Sik]

Of course, people would probably still get stuck here, even with the hint by design.

This particular spot is awful though, because 1) just because there's a broken tube doesn't mean you can break one (gaming history has a rather bad record track regarding being consistent), so people may just not think about it (especially not because in order to break it you need to use the stronger bomb which more often than not will only get used against bosses and designated doors, if you could just shoot it people may be more likely to get it by just messing around) and 2) it's not at a point close to a dead end (the path is still clear to the left and right) so you may just think that there isn't any extra path there. That there's nothing in the way encouraging you to use weapons in that screen also isn't helping matters.

Probably still not as awful as Sonic 3's barrel of doom™ (where you have to use an action that's completely useless anywhere else in the whole series), but whatever.

[beetleking22]

This all reminds me of how little I enjoyed Maridia in general. I found alot of it's design obtuse and structured to make you really waste time.
As a kid, I easily figured out that the tube needed to be bombed. After I got the super bombs, it was the first place I went back to.

I think though, the Sunken Ship was the best way to get in to Maridia proper. I remember it being real easy to get past that gate. I think it was just a super bomb gate or something like that.

The quick sand  section was  the most frustrating thing that this game did offer. Also the boss path was hidden in Pink block room which made people even more confusing...

Oh damn you are right. I really really really could have sworn the glass tube was just a shortcut... ugh. My apologies.

No prob