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[Schoq]

[Alevice]

this day and year, as much as you might like pepsi, its hard not to recognize that as a brand, coca cola reigns supreme globally.

[Schoq]

Pepsi has always had better multiplay (though later iterations have suffered from rather shaky netcode). Sure Coca-Cola is fine for a few rounds of dumb fun now and then, but it doesn't hold a candle to the Pepsi's tactical teamwork dependent play, simulation qualities, and (often overlooked in the comparison) far superior sound design.
It's not all about sales.

[gimymblert]

@ca
NO U i'm not doing that, i'm drawing parallel to highlight the hypocrisis and double standard, ie it's cool to bash f2p while never bringing the other model.

Do you play f2p? it's nothing like a demo at all, especially the popular and good one. The paywall is as noticeable as the annoying banner on top of website, aka easily to disregard (as the +95% not paying user show). Also most of those (good) games actually have (smooth) skill ramps (not a paywall) and that's the famous wall, you either have patience to raise yourself to passed it or you are spineless player with some money to spare using a trick used in ... old arcade game (pay to continue! amazing isn't it). But yeah arcade game where the original evil scheme, targeted at kids and whales, why I don't hear you rambling against arcade game? That is the point no need to single out f2p it's the less evil of them, collector thingy where always part of the market, if not in the game themselves in merchandising (how useful is a 3 inch statue to you?).

Btw I'm currently playing a city builder game, and what people call paywall I see a smart failure state, because once the hardcore in me kicked in I optimized the game for continuous play by smartly staggering the resource production planning, which the main gameplay. In fact I like those games allow for hugely different playstyle and reward  (and it's not filling the bar) hi level thinking in a more steady manner than usual management game. The plus is that you strategize around your real life schedule instead of the over way around (blocking a game session time) which make real life events (neatly) part of the gameplay. This is important because the quality of the game is tied to the business plan and is not bogged down by it (at least in the best game I played so far). In fact game like puzzle and dragon have mecanism in place to actually limit the arpu! so player do not spend to much by offering free stuff whenever possible to avoid burn out. The burn out is important because player are more savvy that most people paint them or the anti f2p propaganda want you to believe. If a game is too manipulating it will crash and burn within a few month as a less burning game appear (or not).

The most beautiful effect is the skill breadth which allow low skill player and hi skill player to play and enjoy the same game, but the most interesting is the skill wall between hi level and very hi level play in some game, aka even if your skill progress you don't until you have an epiphany that goes into counter intuitive strategy.

This last point is important! My frustration with a lot of modern game is how narrow the "skill tunnel" is. You must be this skilled to play the game or else you will be bored (too low and it's frustrating, to high and it's boring) with mostly a designer handed optimal way to play, a reason I tend to made up stupid rule that may break the game to create interesting situation (for example over investing in a stats in rpg and not going for balanced build). Even if I could pay I'm not playing much these time, fun to last 5 to 15mn until I get the game and it became a routine.

[s0]

Do you play f2p?

yeah, i play some games that are f2p on my iphone from time to time, the last was punch quest. but mostly when i play casual games i stick with non-f2p games. i also played ogame (mechanically very similar to clash of clans & other games like that, but without microtransactions) in the mid 00s enough to get sick of it.

But yeah arcade game where the original evil scheme, targeted at kids and whales, why I don't hear you rambling against arcade game?

because those have been dead forever? why would i complain about something that was last relevant in the mid 90s? also "dismissing" arcade games as "quarter munchers" is pretty popular. this supposed "hypocrisy" simply doesnt exist, people complain about dlc & other shit AAA games do all the time (tho they still end up buying them, thats the real hypocrisy), nvm all the popular "hardcore" f2p games like dota2, TF2, path of exile etc. why arent you championing those? HYPOCRISY!

The plus is that you strategize around your real life schedule instead of the over way around (blocking a game session time) which make real life events (neatly) part of the gameplay. This is important because the quality of the game is tied to the business plan and is not bogged down by it (at least in the best game I played so far).

for me that's actually a big minus. it's why i got sick of ogame and it's why i usually get sick of animal crossing after 2 weeks. a game that i have to remember to play regularly isn't entertainment, it's a job (imo).

i don't actually play games that much anymore and i found that many supposedly "inaccessible" "hardcore" games are easier to play casually than these supposedly "casual" f2p games. i can play dwarf fortress (an actually FREE game btw, imagine that!) or crusader kings 2 for 10 minutes, then do something else, then go back to the game etc.

This last point is important! My frustration with a lot of modern game is how narrow the "skill tunnel" is. You must be this skilled to play the game or else you will be bored (too low and it's frustrating, to high and it's boring)

games are very rarely frustrating OR boring to me b/c of their difficulty because i don't play to "win". if the difficulty feels like it fits the game i'm ok with it. i guess this is just a difference in outlook or whatever.

btw: i actually want to try puzzle & dragons but it's not available in my country.

[gimymblert]

But you don't have to play regularly lol most of those game are unlike animal crossing, they don't punish you when you don't play, they reward you, in fact YOU planned this (aka game not based on energy friction) it's not a penalty it is a management, because I play short burst with short term planning them AND if I have an interruption I set up a longer schedule and rip the rewards when I return, it's much better than grind. I would contrast this to management game that need me to move by clicking next turn + ai processing with me in front of the computer, annoyed at the dead time. And those long term schedule also can happen while I play the short burst inside the same game, there is concurrent thread happening.

It's great enough I'm tempt to add this kind of mechanics in my own game to reward player going back to the game AND leaving with expectation. In fact I had a design very similar back in 2005 so I'm glad to see it implemented and actually great. Of course I'm still a hardcore gamer, I would like those games to have even more advance stuff, I don't like the segregation between "casual" and "hardcore", they would benefit from each other so much.

[s0]

But you don't have to play regularly lol most of those game are unlike animal crossing, they don't punish you when you don't play, they reward you, in fact YOU planned this (aka game not based on energy friction) it's not a penalty it is a management

not true for the "competitive" ones where you can get attacked and attack other players, e.g. clash of clans which as far as i know is pretty much the exact same thing as ogame, travian and similar games.

btw i never doubted that there are high level players in those f2p games. it's the same phenomenon as people who would never touch another videogame being really deep into WoW. its interesting because it's basically so-called "normal people" doing something very stereotypically "nerdy" and it really shows up this bs ideology that "people don't like complex games" for what it is. so yeah, i understand what youre getting at i think.

[SirNiko]

I feel like people are skipping over the most obvious reason why F2P exists: in an exceptionally crowded market for online games giving the base game away from free is the easiest way to get players and ensure you have a player base. It's also a great alternative to playing monthly subscriptions (which force you to pay regardless of how much time you play each month) or to a fixed price purchase that may leave you with a permanent playerbase but no income for upkeep or content development. There are far more reasons to make F2P than to simply exploit whales (who are more often than not comfortable with their spending habits, per a bit of investigative reporting I read on Clash of the Clans a few months ago).

I agree with Gimmy on the point that "energy" limitations in games are great for pushing the player to be more efficient (One of my biggest beefs with competitive MMOs is that you can almost always progress faster/better by simply playing more hours, when I'd actually like to be competitive which is why Kingdom of Loathing appealed to me so much). The problem is most F2P MMOs don't really do that in a way that's nearly as satisfying as what you can get in a fixed-price game. I'm playing Neverwinter with a friend now, and while I generally feel the wait times are fair (for crafting it does enforce planning what order you'll put long and short lead activities, for pet training you can always pull out a different pet while you wait) I'd still rather not deal with stuff like cool pets and mounts coming almost exclusively from random boxes. On the other hand, there are plenty of opportunities to get other pets from other sources, so if you approach it rationally you realize it's ultimately a fair design for getting to play the game for life for free with regular updates.

Ultimately, I see F2P as an equally valid monetization model for a game, particularly for MMOs.

[gimymblert]

Haven't dwell into pvp or multiplayer in f2p ... yet?
never had to mmo long enough (aka more than a couple of hour) too

[TheLastBanana]

I guess I don't see how you can make a game free to play and be upset that people are playing it for free, especially if you've designed it to be fully playable without paying. It doesn't necessarily mean your players think games are made by unicorns, it just means they read the part of your game's description that said "free" and actually interpreted it as such.

If you want every customer to pay, F2P is pretty obviously not the model to use. The tradeoff is that with F2P, more people are likely to try your game and potentially take care of your marketing for you, and when somebody does spend money, they have a chance of spending way more than the normal price of a game. It seems kind of ridiculous to count every person who hasn't paid as a lost sale.

[gimymblert]

Well dev are more upset that the market pressure force them into this scheme rather than enjoying making f2p.
Also while the idea is ridiculous to any participant of gamin culture, a rebranding of "game" with a new play format like they did with comics (graphic novel) might be necessary to win this market in the long run.

[Nillo]

I was talking to a friend about Iji today, and it got me thinking that it is an excellent example of how to handle gender in a video game. The genders in Iji are equally represented, both in terms of its main characters/bosses and the low-ranking soldiers you encounter throughout the game. There's a strong female protagonist, but she is still a woman and not forced to be more like a man. The sidekick who needs to be protected is a dude. Two of the supporting characters are a lesbian couple. It is exactly the kind of game feminists ask for, and I've never seen it discussed in feminist circles (maybe because it's not very well known?)

I'm sure you could still find some flaws in Iji to pick at, if you look at it hard enough. With delicate topics like this, there's no way to please everyone. But at some point you gotta step back and acknowledge that Daniel did a lot of things right when he made this game.

[gimymblert]

Man should not force to be like stereotypical male too

But yes the fear is that equality translate into embracing "male" value, but this assertion is double edged sword, what's a "male" value and whats a "female" value? The question only make sense in a pre feminist society.

It's also why it's important to embrace the concept of patriarchy, that's how women were in the past thought as weak willed, child like, sex driven, money irresponsible, but now all of that define modern men and yet this is still "positive" for men (boys gonna be boys thing). No matter how they fight to get into the "right" value, women end up getting the short end of the sticks ...

Currently patriarchy have a nice narrative that fit "feminism" discourse into white knighting (aka save women from ugly men) or strawman feminism (ugly lesbian bitch who want to dominate men)

A better example is the yin and yang perspective, while still coded along stereotypical male/female divide it also abstract the value from gender, allowing for yin man and yang woman, which is seen in most asian art with effeminate boys or "yang girls" therefore allowing a cultural construct that free some people from their imposed identity. While still pretty patriarchal it's more likely to see women in strong lead fiction in asian country.

[Leon Fook]

@Nillo
Wait, there's lesbian character in it?
Also i don't really notice those detail you talk of other than the female lead, which is one of the thing i like about the game. But i think feminist never notice it because it never were infront of the focus? Or you could say, nitpicking criticism?

[Nillo]

@Nillo
Wait, there's lesbian character in it?
Also i don't really notice those detail you talk of other than the female lead, which is one of the thing i like about the game. But i think feminist never notice it because it never were infront of the focus? Or you could say, nitpicking criticism?

You find one of them in sector 3 before the lift to Krotera. If you spare her she'll meet up with her girlfriend later and they'll escape the Komato invasion together. You can find at least 4 different logbooks written by the couple throughout the game.

Also: If you spare the couple, Iji will be noticeably nervous when she later tells Tor that all the Tasen are dead (because she knows she is lying).

As for why the game isn't talked about, I don't know. I would assume there isn't much overlap between the indie gaming crowd and the feminist crowd.

[Leon Fook]

I only heard about it a little bit late, after like 2 or 3 month after the release. I guess the coverage isn't as big as, say, AAA title. Most strike by feminist that i known of are from mainstream media, so i guess they maybe left indie alone?

[gimymblert]

Well most feminist in game are likely to be indie dev also,, there is a lot of indie "social justice game", anna anthropy, sophie houlden, meritt kopa, christie love, all of them have made breakthrough game on those subjects. Also a lot of mainstream feminism happen because woman in the industry just tell their experience, it grew in a feminist movement because they had to speak up the backlash of being a women with a voice first and then by discovering they were not alone and teaming up to exist against the force that try to push them out.

[SirNiko]

A cynical part of me suggests it isn't talked about because it's a lot easier (and more likely to generate hits) to complain about games that do it wrong than to praise games that do it right.

But yeah, I think it would be a good idea to play up Iji and present it as an example of how to do things correctly.

The Borderlands games include a few homosexual characters presented in ways where their sexuality is never used as a joke (eg, one sidequest about a feuding gay couple in which their gender is irrelevant to the gag about their strained relationship, or Hammerlock, a major NPC whose homosexuality is only casually mentioned in one quest dealing with a former boyfriend and otherwise never pushed as a major element of his personality). The upcoming sequel features females for half the playable cast complete with voice acting, the original game has a black lead (who occupies a starring role as an NPC in the second title) and doesn't conform to any racial stereotypes and it's a AAA quality release that sells extremely well to boot. It is another series that really deserves to receive a lot more credit in discussions of social justice.

[gimymblert]

It is talked just that AAA game have more reach. I hear about those because I follow this circle on twitter sometimes. But if it's not AAA nobody outside care, and when they talk about AAA stuff it's like they are coming out from nowhere wood to "complain".

[Slader16]

Taking a break from game dev, so I can focus on college/work. An exception is the upcoming Ludum Dare, mostly because I just can't force myself to skip it. I'm hoping to get back into it after I get settled in, so maybe in a month or two. 


*Originally posted in Human Hugs, figured this would a better place though*