gimymblert
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« Reply #18840 on: September 15, 2014, 06:06:50 AM » |
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Well technically surrogate mother don't have full right over their body, what happen in case of clashes? It became a problem of who "owns" the children, reducing child to objects.
That's not inconsistent, that's not a good example. That's not like the fine young capitalist claiming to not be transphobic and then claim just after that non normative gender are "boring to discuss".
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Nillo
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« Reply #18841 on: September 15, 2014, 06:31:47 AM » |
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Well technically surrogate mother don't have full right over their body, what happen in case of clashes? It became a problem of who "owns" the children, reducing child to objects.
That's not inconsistent, that's not a good example. That's not like the fine young capitalist claiming to not be transphobic and then claim just after that non normative gender are "boring to discuss".
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/6/1334The data I've seen so far suggests that surrogate mothers do not often have problems surrendering the child to the genetic parents, and there is generally a good relationship between them. A clash might occur, of course, just as it could in any relationship between individuals. But you would have to prove that this happens often enough for a total ban on surrogate motherhood to be warranted. Basically, my position comes down to this. If a woman says she wants to carry a child for someone else, and claims to be 100% certain of this decision, why should we stop them? Who are you to say that she cannot - that she will change her mind and want to keep the child? Why not trust her own word on the matter? This issue is particularly important because FI claims to be a LGBT-friendly alternative, and surrogate motherhood is the only possibility for some non-traditional couples to have a genetically related child.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #18842 on: September 15, 2014, 07:32:51 AM » |
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It does have more ethical implication than that but ethics and moral are not subjective IMHO, and being men I think we are infringing a domain where women should rules over, not all feminist are for (or against), it's the kind of fringe value where there is no absolute answer. I lean more against it, but understand "for".
I also still fear the industrialization of the wonb, as things like contractual leasing of a body isn't as clear cut as lending other type of labor. Because contracts also "hide" a violence by putting the burden on the labor person, when you "have to" find a way to life, you haven't much choice, and pregnancy is complex, it involve emotion, there is no way to truly distance yourself from it (if I believe report from sources).
However I still don't see a contradiction and that's the main point.
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Nillo
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« Reply #18843 on: September 15, 2014, 07:53:10 AM » |
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However I still don't see a contradiction and that's the main point.
The contradiction is that you cannot simultaneously claim that women should have full control of their bodies and ban surrogate motherhood, because then you're preventing them from making a decision about their body.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #18844 on: September 15, 2014, 08:22:35 AM » |
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well but it's not a case of cold logic here, it's not a mathematical problem.
I'm sure there is law against suicide, it qualify as doing whatever you want with your body too, plus it's not just their body, there can be as much as 4 party (surrogate mother, biologic mother, donor father, social father) etc ... this can be very complex very quickly.
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Nillo
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« Reply #18845 on: September 15, 2014, 11:19:13 AM » |
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well but it's not a case of cold logic here, it's not a mathematical problem.
I'm sure there is law against suicide, it qualify as doing whatever you want with your body too, plus it's not just their body, there can be as much as 4 party (surrogate mother, biologic mother, donor father, social father) etc ... this can be very complex very quickly.
It's true, surrogacy is a relatively complex arrangement with many people involved, and caution must be used when implementing it. That is not the argument Feminist Initiative put forth, however, and it is their argument I was primarily arguing against. FI say that surrogacy is exploitative and oppressive specifically for the woman carrying the child; I disagree with that statement. Moving on. I heard in the news today that the Social Democrats declined the option to cooperate with the Left Party. I expected something like this, but it is still a very bold move on their part. It seems to me like their platform is dangerously weak now with only one other party supporting them (the Green Party). In fact, the combined seats of S and MP are fewer than the right-wing alliance, so now their only hope is to get the right wing to cooperate. There is a real possibility of a re-election happening soon and the results of that election could flip the politics of Sweden upside down.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #18846 on: September 15, 2014, 12:07:03 PM » |
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That's politics, they take shortcuts, nuance don't work well, especially in modern politics, you can't be more nuanced than this issues so they go for marketing slogan I suppose lol
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Schoq
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« Reply #18847 on: September 15, 2014, 12:23:32 PM » |
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The rightwing alliance needs to stop being so adamant about sticking together and both sides need to make some compromises so a center coalition can be formed. It's not a two party system ffs and it's the land of lagom anyway.
Aw yes partisan politics talk that doesn't concern you how do you like that americans??
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♡ ♥ make games, not money ♥ ♡
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ink.inc
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« Reply #18848 on: September 15, 2014, 12:26:40 PM » |
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(its interesting keep going)
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Praying Mantis
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« Reply #18849 on: September 15, 2014, 03:22:22 PM » |
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Is it just me or did about 20 pages get deleted from the Movies thread? I remember there being 82 pages and now there's just 62.
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Snail_Man
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« Reply #18850 on: September 15, 2014, 03:24:17 PM » |
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The forum just changed from 15 posts/page to 20, which accounts for fewer pages.
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Do it Then do it right Then do it well
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Glyph
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« Reply #18851 on: September 15, 2014, 07:04:24 PM » |
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This thread used to be well over 1000 pages as well. Threw me for a loop too.
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Praying Mantis
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« Reply #18852 on: September 15, 2014, 07:21:02 PM » |
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Oh makes sense.
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Leon Fook
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« Reply #18853 on: September 16, 2014, 02:56:48 AM » |
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gimymblert
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« Reply #18854 on: September 16, 2014, 07:19:31 AM » |
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rj
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« Reply #18855 on: September 16, 2014, 08:10:08 AM » |
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sometimes you start writing a thing and then stop because you don't care enough
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airman4
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« Reply #18856 on: September 16, 2014, 10:59:45 AM » |
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Crazy hahaha ! wow call of players will rage about this
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ink.inc
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« Reply #18857 on: September 16, 2014, 06:01:52 PM » |
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Müsta Klaki
Level 1
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« Reply #18858 on: September 16, 2014, 06:19:17 PM » |
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You're telling me I can play hardcore-hentai VR games on the go!? donates 10 thousand dollars
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rj
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« Reply #18859 on: September 17, 2014, 12:14:23 PM » |
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i'm laughing here in this fucking library because of a man with an ipad strapped to his ucking head
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