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[fish]

so i was talking with jon (mak) just now and he brought up something that had been bugging me for a while.

what the fuck is pixeljunk racers doing at IGF?
its being published by sony, and q-games have acted as a nintendo 3-rd party many times in the past.

how exactly is that "in the spirit of indie development"

DISCUSS.

[PoV]

And I was about to ask how Madden 2008 got in the IGF.

It was my understanding that any game not developed by members of the ESA, or companies owned by said members, was fair game.  Obviously, companies like Valve are "better off" than most, and don't enter because it'd be unfair. 

[simoniker]

Ah, probably worth me replying on this one (Simon here, Chairman of IGF).

Sure, this gets into 'what is indie', but if you buy that folks like Telltale are indie (which I do), or indeed, people like ThatGameCompany (which I do), then I feel like PixelJunk Racers is absolutely fair game.

Firstly, PixelJunk Racers was completely self-funded, from what I've been told. Secondly, it was done by a really small team (a subset of the Q-Games guys, including a specially imported Atman Binstock) in a short period of time, and it's unabashedly retro and niche game-oriented.

One of the things that I'm hoping the indie scene can do is to start being a bit more inclusive of professional game companies who are making shorter, more bite-sized games. It's a level playing field out there with many digital releases - really, nobody is getting significantly more publicity than anyone else, and it doesn't matter if you're a one person developer or a ten-person developer, as long as the game is great. The IGF has proved time and time again that it's the best game that wins out.

But that's what I think - if you have strong opinions on why we should or shouldn't exclude titles like this, feel free to pitch in.

[PoV]

Man, Atman's everywhere.

[Keops]

This reminds me of the argument on "what is indie" and "what's NOT indie"... I believe things VERY indie in spirit can come from the big ones. Probably in the same way a commercial wanna-be can come from anyone's basement. Not sure if anyone gets me but oh well. Maybe the whole "what is the indie spirit" thing will get rolling again with this thread heh.

[waruwaru]

Next thing you know, EA will be in home-brew market...  

This remind me of grunge rocks and how it became main stream and commercialized.

[PoV]

Where there's money to be made, people with the money to make it will follow.  And just as there'll be purist indies, there'll be capitalist indies.  Like it or not, Indie is just today's term for budget game development.  If you want something meaningful out of it, make a meaningful game, and not an indie game.

[Alec]

I don't think that we should be more inclusive of non-indie games- that's just making us the same as the industry with a different name.

Are there really two industries? The only big difference I'm noticing is that the indie community seems to have more talentless self-absorbed douche bags.

I find the sheer number of people who haven't accomplished anything, but still consider themselves a big part of the indie scene and a valid enough part to flail their egos about wildly depressing.

I also don't believe that "indie" and "success" are mutually exclusive.

[Alec]

I like to think that there is. I like to think that we indies are the rebel rock stars, fighting against "the man" and all that.

Yeah, but we're not.

Jon Mak is on PS3, I don't see how that "fights the man". His game has a number of similarities with Rez, which was a game produced by "the man". Fez has a number of things in common with "Crush", which was also made by "the man". We're all inspired by mainstream games to some degree, and we all create stuff that has some similarity to mainstream games whether we intend to or not.

The "indie industry" has a lot in common with the mainstream industry.

I don't think its about fighting the man so much as making games that you care about, games that speak to you and games that have personal expression - rather than making games based on focus groups and "market research". If the goal was really just "to fight the man", I doubt any fun games would come out of it or that anyone would make any money off them.

[Alec]

we're still "fighting the man" by creating games

Yeah, some of us actually make games.

Maybe one of these days we should create a community that's all about people who make indie games. It seems like litmus test for being part of the indie game scene is "do you have a big enough ego to say outrageous things" and not "have you actually made indie games".

[BMcC]

... Maybe one of these days we should create a community that's all about people who make indie games. ...

Whhaaat?  That's crazy talk!

[Eden]

You crazy man Alec.

[queasy]

hey, since fish brought up my name, i thought i'd chime in a little bit.  what bugs me most is that although non-industry games are getting more press these days, there's still utlimately very few places in which those authors can showcase their work.

One of those places is the IGF.

That's why it bugs me when games backed by a publisher or with financial means of promotion monopolize events like the IGF.  PJR is published by Sony, and was presented at E3 and TGS.  It had it's own station where producers could meet with press one on one.  This is an opportunity that many, MANY extremely talented game-makers do not have, so why take the opportunity away from someone who's in a less fortunate position?

I mean, where the hell would I be if ES wasn't in the IGF?  Yea, out on the street selling illegal fireworks in chinatown.

While it's great if games like PJR are recognized in something like the IGF, realize that the guy who gets bumped as a result could be the next Kenta Cho -- and then we possibly may never hear from them again.

-j
ps: just in case there's any confusion, I'm not saying that PJR sucks.  I actually think it's a great game, and hey, it's the dudes behind digidrive which was also in the realm of awesome.

[Alec]

Another thing to consider is that the judges are free to judge games as they see fit.

A lot of the judges this year are underfunded indies... I wonder how that affects things.

[papamook]

I think there's a fine line between what is indie and what isn't. That's the problem.

I don't think that's true. There's a well defined line between indie and corporate funded. There is a less defined line however between independent and amateur as all amateurs are independent but not all indies are amateur.

I think people tend to get amateur confused with independent, or rather, they prefer the term indie to amateur. Someone who is not amateur can still very much be independent.

[BMcC]

... I mean, where the hell would I be if ES wasn't in the IGF?  Yea, out on the street selling illegal fireworks in chinatown. ...

Which I would buy (for so damn cheap).

...But yeah, I agree.  IGF should champion the creative, independent developers out there.  Give talented people who would otherwise be unknown a chance to live off their art.  Steal from the rich and give to the poor.

I think they get it right for the most part, though.  I don't think we should be too worried about a big company buying awards or anything like that.  Not with that excellent list of judges.

[Tr00jg]

@Alec: Your stance is interesting. I can't really pinpoint what you are trying to say? Are you for, or against indies here?

[fish]

thanks simon for pitching in.
everybody else: i dont think this is about "fighting the man" or not.
i dont want to fight a man.
the man would prolly beat me up.
but as it was said before, there is a thin line.
and to me this pixeljunk business has clearly crossed it.
i mean..theyre ALREADY getting published for sure.
jon is on ps3, but he wasnt on ps3 when he entered.
he's on ps3 BECAUSE he entered (well, partially. that all the awesome).
i dont care if its a small team and your game was self-funded, if you already have a deal signed with sony, you dont belong.

my 2 cents.

[papamook]

I agree Sony should not be playing in the little kids sand pit, they should be behind the bike sheds smoking up. I'd suspect Sony were not aware. Are you suggesting that being without a publishing deal should be stated in the rules of entry in future?

I'm sure it's probably not the first game to have a publishing deal in-place before entering...

[fish]

i dont want to start saying what should be in the rules or not.
the whole thing just seems so inapropriate to me.