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[Quick-n-Dead]

Why does everyone think I'm the only one on this project?

That is the feeling I am getting, and with 3 guys already on the team that are seasoned.  Just because I am here and posting doesn't mean I'm the brain of the entire thing.

So, let me put it this way so everyone will understand CLEARLY and FINALLY...

WE ARE A TEAM OF 5 MEMBERS!  I AM NOT THE TOP DOG.  I AM ONLY HERE TO RECRUIT PEOPLE FOR THE TEAM.

I will take all of your advice back to the TEAM.

[Snakey]

Well, here is my 2 cents of the situation. It's up to you whether you think I'm an idiot or someone trying to give you advice.

Motivation; Seasoned; Time; Money
All of these aspects are related to each other. To develop something to show potential investors you need to convince them with your demo and elevator pitch. Investors are usually not that interested in just a single game, but rather an IP that they can later use to expand their financial kingdom. However, just remember that an IP is not worth anything until it actually brings in any income or potential income. This sort of sounds like the catch 22 problem (which is the same as the experience problem). One way to resolve this is to develop a strong community fan base first, and release prototypes / demos so investors can see that there is a market for this game. Most investors are really only usually interested in mass market audiences rather than vertical niche markets. Depending on your goals, remember that sometimes you have to make games that you don't enjoy playing. With most investors you only get about three silver bullets. If you've fired all three, they're not likely to ever give you their time of the day again.

Motivation is always very high at the beginning of a project. It's how high it can be maintained through out the project that's very important. Are all of you sold on the idea that you have now, or is it going to keep changing over the next few weeks? Constant changes to the idea is going to change the technology required, as well as potentially losing work that's already been created or started. The problem with most (90%) of software startups is that they don't end with a bang. They tend to end with a whimper. That is to say, that they slowly lose motivation and steam as things progress. Team members start to get tired and start thinking that their current stable jobs isn't actually that bad, and the hours start to drop and dwindle ... leading to the eventual stage where no one is doing work anymore. How you or your financial partner plan to deal with this is up to you. While I appreciate that you are all in the military, do realise that not everyone, particularly for those who have not served in the military, are going to enjoy being pushed around being told what to do (or else). Lastly, don't treat each other like subordinates. It doesn't set up for a friendly work environment, and can create some resentment within the team.

The fact that you mentioned that you guys have seasoned developers is interesting. While it doesn't matter what you say, it only really matters what you do. I hope that you and your team members are honest in that regard. Playing games is certainly not anything to do with developing games. In the end, your work will speak for itself. Unfortunately, no one really joins a team just because people say they are seasoned developers ... people only do that when theres proof such as a game out on the market that they really like.

Time is the only real currency that you guys have. The thing with game development is that it often does take a lot of time to do anything. If you are wanting to develop a large title, you can only really estimate time based on actual experience. It's easy to say a random date such as sometime in June next year because it sounds really, really far away. I assume that most if not all of your team have normal day time jobs. Given that most jobs take about 8 hours per day, you sleep about 7 or 8 hours per day, eat/drink for about 1 hour a day (or more) ... it doesn't leave you with a lot of time left over (this doesn't even include family). Asking people to give up their time for any number of weeks or months is very hard, particularly if the said people can themselves develop games on their own. So, the only real way to create a reasonable time table, is to layout what things you want / need done in the demo, then go about asking people who have done it how long it would take roughly. Highly motivated, excited people always give the worst estimates (A new rendering system? Sure! I'll finish it in the weekend!) ... so always double or triple an estimate. If anything involves learning something, then the time estimate is always going to be wrong.

A team of five is certainly bigger than most indie game teams, but you're not really making an indie game per say. Regardless of what you said, you guys are going to be competing with EA and the top dogs. It's similar to when I hear MMO's saying that they aren't going to compete with WoW. It doesn't matter because they have to. People don't pay multiple subscriptions to MMO's. They only tend to pay for one or the other. So indirectly, every MMO on the planet has to compete with everyone. And the same goes with you. You may feel like you aren't competing with the top dogs, but so far everything you've said about the project sounds like you have to (since investors typically want their money back, plus then some). Teams for most commercial games are quite large. I believe a game like Gears of War took about eight to hundred people. A game like GTA4 took ridiculous amounts of people...

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I think the guy who did "the wonderful end of the world" and "aaahhhh a disregard for gravity" uses this engine.
But Yeah Blitz3D is really the best current tool for 3d games.

thanks for the info, that's impressive if so, i may have to reevaluate the engine, depending on how successful aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh is

[Quick-n-Dead]

Well, here is my 2 cents of the situation. It's up to you whether you think I'm an idiot or someone trying to give you advice.

Motivation; Seasoned; Time; Money
All of these aspects are related to each other. To develop something to show potential investors you need to convince them with your demo and elevator pitch. Investors are usually not that interested in just a single game, but rather an IP that they can later use to expand their financial kingdom. However, just remember that an IP is not worth anything until it actually brings in any income or potential income. This sort of sounds like the catch 22 problem (which is the same as the experience problem). One way to resolve this is to develop a strong community fan base first, and release prototypes / demos so investors can see that there is a market for this game. Most investors are really only usually interested in mass market audiences rather than vertical niche markets. Depending on your goals, remember that sometimes you have to make games that you don't enjoy playing. With most investors you only get about three silver bullets. If you've fired all three, they're not likely to ever give you their time of the day again.

Motivation is always very high at the beginning of a project. It's how high it can be maintained through out the project that's very important. Are all of you sold on the idea that you have now, or is it going to keep changing over the next few weeks? Constant changes to the idea is going to change the technology required, as well as potentially losing work that's already been created or started. The problem with most (90%) of software startups is that they don't end with a bang. They tend to end with a whimper. That is to say, that they slowly lose motivation and steam as things progress. Team members start to get tired and start thinking that their current stable jobs isn't actually that bad, and the hours start to drop and dwindle ... leading to the eventual stage where no one is doing work anymore. How you or your financial partner plan to deal with this is up to you. While I appreciate that you are all in the military, do realise that not everyone, particularly for those who have not served in the military, are going to enjoy being pushed around being told what to do (or else). Lastly, don't treat each other like subordinates. It doesn't set up for a friendly work environment, and can create some resentment within the team.

The fact that you mentioned that you guys have seasoned developers is interesting. While it doesn't matter what you say, it only really matters what you do. I hope that you and your team members are honest in that regard. Playing games is certainly not anything to do with developing games. In the end, your work will speak for itself. Unfortunately, no one really joins a team just because people say they are seasoned developers ... people only do that when theres proof such as a game out on the market that they really like.

Time is the only real currency that you guys have. The thing with game development is that it often does take a lot of time to do anything. If you are wanting to develop a large title, you can only really estimate time based on actual experience. It's easy to say a random date such as sometime in June next year because it sounds really, really far away. I assume that most if not all of your team have normal day time jobs. Given that most jobs take about 8 hours per day, you sleep about 7 or 8 hours per day, eat/drink for about 1 hour a day (or more) ... it doesn't leave you with a lot of time left over (this doesn't even include family). Asking people to give up their time for any number of weeks or months is very hard, particularly if the said people can themselves develop games on their own. So, the only real way to create a reasonable time table, is to layout what things you want / need done in the demo, then go about asking people who have done it how long it would take roughly. Highly motivated, excited people always give the worst estimates (A new rendering system? Sure! I'll finish it in the weekend!) ... so always double or triple an estimate. If anything involves learning something, then the time estimate is always going to be wrong.

A team of five is certainly bigger than most indie game teams, but you're not really making an indie game per say. Regardless of what you said, you guys are going to be competing with EA and the top dogs. It's similar to when I hear MMO's saying that they aren't going to compete with WoW. It doesn't matter because they have to. People don't pay multiple subscriptions to MMO's. They only tend to pay for one or the other. So indirectly, every MMO on the planet has to compete with everyone. And the same goes with you. You may feel like you aren't competing with the top dogs, but so far everything you've said about the project sounds like you have to (since investors typically want their money back, plus then some). Teams for most commercial games are quite large. I believe a game like Gears of War took about eight to hundred people. A game like GTA4 took ridiculous amounts of people...

Thank you, Snake.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

Why does everyone think I'm the only one on this project?

That is the feeling I am getting, and with 3 guys already on the team that are seasoned.  Just because I am here and posting doesn't mean I'm the brain of the entire thing.

So, let me put it this way so everyone will understand CLEARLY and FINALLY...

WE ARE A TEAM OF 5 MEMBERS!  I AM NOT THE TOP DOG.  I AM ONLY HERE TO RECRUIT PEOPLE FOR THE TEAM.

I will take all of your advice back to the TEAM.

I mentioned that in my advice. You have more than enough people to do a prototype or even a whole game, save for the "artist" thing. But if your game isn't fun without art, it won't be fun with art.

It's a misconception that you need a large team to do a game. 1-2 people can make a great game. 3 people can make a great game. Work with what you have right now, and PROTOTYPE. You WILL NOT find an experienced teammate (friends aside) without a good prototype, an amazing concept, or money. Any one of those will do, and you have none of those so far.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

actually i've noticed that without art games can sorely lack fun even if they're identical otherwise -- an example of this is battle chess. when the pieces captured each other they fought in an animated way.





that made the game a *lot* more fun than if it were just a typical chess game with icon graphics and no animations

this one is particularly famous:

[Quick-n-Dead]

Why does everyone think I'm the only one on this project?

That is the feeling I am getting, and with 3 guys already on the team that are seasoned.  Just because I am here and posting doesn't mean I'm the brain of the entire thing.

So, let me put it this way so everyone will understand CLEARLY and FINALLY...

WE ARE A TEAM OF 5 MEMBERS!  I AM NOT THE TOP DOG.  I AM ONLY HERE TO RECRUIT PEOPLE FOR THE TEAM.

I will take all of your advice back to the TEAM.

I mentioned that in my advice. You have more than enough people to do a prototype or even a whole game, save for the "artist" thing. But if your game isn't fun without art, it won't be fun with art.

It's a misconception that you need a large team to do a game. 1-2 people can make a great game. 3 people can make a great game. Work with what you have right now, and PROTOTYPE. You WILL NOT find an experienced teammate (friends aside) without a good prototype, an amazing concept, or money. Any one of those will do, and you have none of those so far.

And like I have said in the past, we do not have someone who can do concept art.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i believe that by concept and prototype he did not mean concept art. he meant concept -- the general idea for the game. something like a design document. a working model (perhaps in 2d) of what the game will play like.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

Why does everyone think I'm the only one on this project?

That is the feeling I am getting, and with 3 guys already on the team that are seasoned.  Just because I am here and posting doesn't mean I'm the brain of the entire thing.

So, let me put it this way so everyone will understand CLEARLY and FINALLY...

WE ARE A TEAM OF 5 MEMBERS!  I AM NOT THE TOP DOG.  I AM ONLY HERE TO RECRUIT PEOPLE FOR THE TEAM.

I will take all of your advice back to the TEAM.

I mentioned that in my advice. You have more than enough people to do a prototype or even a whole game, save for the "artist" thing. But if your game isn't fun without art, it won't be fun with art.

It's a misconception that you need a large team to do a game. 1-2 people can make a great game. 3 people can make a great game. Work with what you have right now, and PROTOTYPE. You WILL NOT find an experienced teammate (friends aside) without a good prototype, an amazing concept, or money. Any one of those will do, and you have none of those so far.

And like I have said in the past, we do not have someone who can do concept art.

And like I just said, you don't need it. A concept is separate from concept art. Right now your concept is "FPS with RPG elements" which is not an attractive, original, amazing, or special concept. No offense. Expand upon it. lets say you're concept is now "build a robot out of a set of preconceived parts which you then battle FPS style with others and make money to buy new parts" that's a better concept (it's not good enough though, it's been done before. But I'm not here to come up with a concept). An "Amazing Concept" is extraordinarily difficult to come up with. Out of the 50 or so flash games I've done, I can only classify one as having an amazing concept (and that's why it's getting the console treatment). Even so, it's nothing without its prototype.

Your easiest way to attract attention, and by far the most feasible for you since you have no money to offer, is to get a prototype working. You don't need art for a prototype. Work within your limits and come up with a design that's fun to play without art, and I guarantee you'll attract an artist.

[Quick-n-Dead]

i believe that by concept and prototype he did not mean concept art. he meant concept -- the general idea for the game. something like a design document. a working model (perhaps in 2d) of what the game will play like.

The one problem we're running into is that people are working regular jobs and doing this as they have time to do.  That's why I am here and asking for help.  There is only one person on the team who has time to actually work on something and he's our programmer.

[John Nesky]

Are you looking for charity?

EDIT: Have you considered helping to work on someone else's project instead of starting your own?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

creating a design document doesn't really take oodles of time -- depending on how fast you write, you can draft one in a few hours, and bounce it around among the team. and it really helps to have a solid idea for the game in written form rather than just vague ideas. i wrote a tutorial on design documents which may be helpful to you: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3647.0

[Quick-n-Dead]

Why does everyone think I'm the only one on this project?

That is the feeling I am getting, and with 3 guys already on the team that are seasoned.  Just because I am here and posting doesn't mean I'm the brain of the entire thing.

So, let me put it this way so everyone will understand CLEARLY and FINALLY...

WE ARE A TEAM OF 5 MEMBERS!  I AM NOT THE TOP DOG.  I AM ONLY HERE TO RECRUIT PEOPLE FOR THE TEAM.

I will take all of your advice back to the TEAM.

I mentioned that in my advice. You have more than enough people to do a prototype or even a whole game, save for the "artist" thing. But if your game isn't fun without art, it won't be fun with art.

It's a misconception that you need a large team to do a game. 1-2 people can make a great game. 3 people can make a great game. Work with what you have right now, and PROTOTYPE. You WILL NOT find an experienced teammate (friends aside) without a good prototype, an amazing concept, or money. Any one of those will do, and you have none of those so far.

And like I have said in the past, we do not have someone who can do concept art.

And like I just said, you don't need it. A concept is separate from concept art. Right now your concept is "FPS with RPG elements" which is not an attractive, original, amazing, or special concept. No offense. Expand upon it. lets say you're concept is now "build a robot out of a set of preconceived parts which you then battle FPS style with others and make money to buy new parts" that's a better concept (it's not good enough though, it's been done before. But I'm not here to come up with a concept). An "Amazing Concept" is extraordinarily difficult to come up with. Out of the 50 or so flash games I've done, I can only classify one as having an amazing concept (and that's why it's getting the console treatment). Even so, it's nothing without its prototype.

Your easiest way to attract attention, and by far the most feasible for you since you have no money to offer, is to get a prototype working. You don't need art for a prototype. Work within your limits and come up with a design that's fun to play without art, and I guarantee you'll attract an artist.

  Ah... Okies.  Now I get it!  D'oh!

[Quick-n-Dead]

Are you looking for charity?

EDIT: Have you considered helping to work on someone else's project instead of starting your own?

I am more than willing to help anyone with anything that I have the knowledge to do.

All they need do is ask.  That's personally from me.

Here's what I can do... Some light architecture 3d modeling, web static graphics, websites (forums and content management), and I am a computer technician for over 10 years.

[c-foo peng]

Basically, any demonstration of skill would be immensely helpful to your cause. Who are these team members? What sort of experience do they have exactly? What have they worked on previous to this project? There are all things investors will be looking at, in addition to your demo.

This is why most indies don't bother trying to develop demos for investors. They make an ACTUAL game in X months, with goals of selling that game that they worked on. They can at least have a chance at making any sort of revenue, and not have it hinge on investors that more than likely won't care for what you've developed.

As with others, I highly recommend you think it through a bit more before you take a course of action. You need much more than motivation, you need talent and experience.

[Quick-n-Dead]

Basically, any demonstration of skill would be immensely helpful to your cause. Who are these team members? What sort of experience do they have exactly? What have they worked on previous to this project? There are all things investors will be looking at, in addition to your demo.

This is why most indies don't bother trying to develop demos for investors. They make an ACTUAL game in X months, with goals of selling that game that they worked on. They can at least have a chance at making any sort of revenue, and not have it hinge on investors that more than likely won't care for what you've developed.

As with others, I highly recommend you think it through a bit more before you take a course of action. You need much more than motivation, you need talent and experience.

Dream Forge Entertainment Our 3d/Animation/Rigger.

T-Man just graduated from Devry Institute in Gaming Technology.  C#/C++ using DarkGDK.

KS has produced, composed and has engineered sound for several games.

Me - Contributed roughly 100+ models to a game modification, computer technician, and personal website and small business (non-ecommerce) websites.  Here are two of my examples:

Accordion Door Store
Petra Stone

Graphical Signature that I made:


Rob - Avid gamer and business man.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

credentials

None of which is relevant to your current project

Edit: We aren't doubting your skill / motivation. But answer this question, from the perspective of an outsider. "Why should I work for you, for free?"

[Quick-n-Dead]

Are there any real guarantees in life? Yes, just one.  We're all gonna die.  That's a guarantee.

Can I guarantee someone is going to get paid? No.

Can someone make a name for their selff? Yes.

Is there a chance for someone to make money? Yes.

You've asked the hardest question there is to answer.

Someone who is just starting out can make a name for their selves.  It will be a resume item that they can say that they actually did create a game with a game company (whether or not the company actually made money or not).

Maybe someone is just looking to be part of a team that has a real goal in mind and to make some money eventually.

We put in hard work in school to graduate.  Did we get paid for going to school? No (unless you are a silverspoon kid).

If someone wants something, they will work hard to get it.

Am I motivated? HELL YEAH I AM.  Don't people like to work with motivated people? Of course!  We all have the CAN-DO attitude.

It's like going to Vegas... You go there to gamble to win, but most often you end up losing more than you win.  It's a risk, granted.  But, there is always that chance of a big pay off at some point so you continue on.

Look... You can beat me around the flipping internet for all I care, but no matter what you are not going to deter me personally from doing this.  You have provided great advice and we're now working on a Design Document.

Either way, we will do this without any help from anyone here.  All I hear is talk from you all as well.

But more than anything I feel and hear the jadedness of helping anyone.

I have offered my help to anyone in the areas that I have already stated.  Now it's your turn.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

That's our experience.

You asked for it, you got it and to slough it off as credentials?

What do you want our DNA to prove it to you?

No, I don't care about your experience, I'm not doubting that. Read what I said again

[Glaiel-Gamer]

Here's an example of what I mean, using myself as the "employer" (disclaimer: I'm not hiring)


OFFER 1:

Hey, I'm a talented motivated designer with an idea for a game. It's gonna be a 3D puzzley type game. My team is myself, a 2D animator, and a musician. I'm looking for a 3D artist/animator and someone familiar with 3D technologies to help out.

Here's my credentials:
http://glaiel-gamer.newgrounds.com/flash/

I don't have any money to offer right now, and the project should take about 18 months from start to finish. You can get paid after we make money on the game.

OFFER 2:

Hey, I'm doing a 3D version of this game
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/480006

And need to bring on a 3D artist/animator and a programmer familiar with 3D technologies to help bring the project to life. You'll get paid in royalties when the game is released, as I have no funding right now currently. The prototype shown here got a ton of positive press and people loved the game, so the 3D version is looking very promising.

Both offers are essentially the same claim. But nobody would respond to offer 1, and I probably could find the help I need for offer 2 (even though it still would be tough without immediate money involved, it'd definitely be possible). Do you see the difference there? PROVE your concept with a prototype first.